Author Topic: Who is to blame?  (Read 1782 times)

Offline Yeager

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Who is to blame?
« on: August 03, 2005, 03:18:30 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html

who is to blame for the death of the little child?

In my book the father killed the little girl through his negligence but I could certainly sympathise with those that believe law enforcement reacted poorly to the situation.  One thing is for sure, I would be very hesitent to give millions of tax dollars to the family of the now deceased negligent father and child as compensation.

What say you?
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Offline Manedew

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Who is to blame?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 03:32:09 PM »
it's my opinion that in such situations ... the police should back off and wait for the situation to calm down ....

I think they press too hard making an, angry, disturbed sick induvidual do rash, horrible things-like start a firefight with a child in his arms ......

How long could he have held that child? ... a few hours?  The cops couldn't pull back watch and wait?

It's like high speed chases .... dont' chase the idiot makeing him do rash things that endanger others ... follow him far behind and with choppers.... let him run out of gas ....

The cops may have had no choice once he staretd fireing, but they excalated the situation.  Sometimes it's better to wait and watch.

Offline LePaul

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Who is to blame?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 03:36:19 PM »
Sure is great to debate something like this with hindsight.

Guy used the kid as a hostage and shield.  Sad :(

Offline Furball

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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 03:36:54 PM »
Quote
The child, who weighed 20 pounds, also was shot in the leg. Both bullets traveled through her body, and several minor fragment wounds were detected on the surface of her lower and upper extremities, according to the autopsy report, which was released Tuesday.

SWAT members of the Los Angeles Police Department fired up to 60 rounds when they stormed a business where Jose Raul Pena barricaded himself while holding his daughter as a "human shield," police said.


fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield?  That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.

Quote
Last month's ordeal was the second time in the SWAT team's 38-year history that a hostage died during a standoff, police said. In the early 1970s, a hostage-taker killed the victim, according to police.
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Offline GtoRA2

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Who is to blame?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 04:20:59 PM »
He shot one of the cops.

In the heat of the moment I can not blame them for what they did.


The father is 100% responsible.


It is a shame, and those officers are going to have to live with it the rest of their lives. I am sure it will haunt them. Thats enough.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 04:38:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield?  That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.


the guy really didn't leave them any option.  He came out of his house twice with the little girl as a shield and fired at the police each time, the 2nd time wounding a SWAT officer.  Not once during these two occasions did the police return fire, it was only after the third incident when the father came out and opened fire again did the police resort to firing back.  This guy was intent on dying and taking his girl with him.  It's a tragedy and one that the police officers involved will be plagued with the rest of their lives because one man intent on dying left them little choice.


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Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Who is to blame?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 04:46:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html

who is to blame for the death of the little child?

In my book the father killed the little girl through his negligence but I could certainly sympathise with those that believe law enforcement reacted poorly to the situation.  One thing is for sure, I would be very hesitent to give millions of tax dollars to the family of the now deceased negligent father and child as compensation.

What say you?


VERY HESITENT????

How about no chance in hell....

There are SO MANY what ifs in this story but to blame the LAPD?  What if they guy who was using his daughter as a human shield shot and killed several others while police did nothing?

I've been listening to this whole story play out the past couple of weeks and it disgusts me.  First the minorities blaming the police first.  Then the fact that this guy is in the country illegally.  SECOND WHAT IF:  what if the INS deported him (for the second time) when he was in jail after being arrested a few months back.

Third what if:  What if the scum didn't use a toddler as a human shield.

Yea the minorities got it right on this one "them dam police is to blame" no I'm not being racist I actuall saw somone say that on the local news.  It's not as if the police were blood thirsty killers like this guys family wants you to beleive.  Several have been in counseling for weeks now because they were so tramatized by the outcome of this event.  The only one to blame.....the scum father

Offline Rude

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Who is to blame?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2005, 04:46:52 PM »
Hiyas Yeag!!!

You flyin?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 04:48:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
fire 60 rounds at a guy holding a child as a human shield?  That is just wrong, it is hard to blame the police - they have a great record, but in that situation i think they should have tried another method.


furball what they arent telling you is they fired those rounds over several DIFFERENT gun fights.

They guy retreated into his business.  After police RESCUED his oldest daughter they went in after him fearing the child may have been wounded.  More fire fights with police erupted INSIDE as well.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2005, 04:50:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Manedew
it's my opinion that in such situations ... the police should back off and wait for the situation to calm down ....

I think they press too hard making an, angry, disturbed sick induvidual do rash, horrible things-like start a firefight with a child in his arms ......

How long could he have held that child? ... a few hours?  The cops couldn't pull back watch and wait?

It's like high speed chases .... dont' chase the idiot makeing him do rash things that endanger others ... follow him far behind and with choppers.... let him run out of gas ....

The cops may have had no choice once he staretd fireing, but they excalated the situation.  Sometimes it's better to wait and watch.


yea i mean why don't they just say all is forgiven.  Take your Illegal immigrint drug using self and firearm and go wreak havoc someweres else.  Oh and wear this helmet and body armor...we woulnd want you to get hurt while you commit your crimes and murder.

Here’s how the attempted cop massacre began. At 2 pm on July 10, Lorena Lopez called the police and filed a domestic threats report against Pena. Pena then abducted his 18-month-old daughter Susie from the mother’s home and took her to his car lot. Next, Pena’s 16-year-old stepdaughter called the police from the car lot, saying that Pena was physically threatening her. The police arrive, and Pena starts firing at them while holding his toddler in front of him. The police help the stepdaughter escape the line of fire. Pena continues to shoot, even as the SWAT team is trying to negotiate over the phone with Pena to peacefully surrender. Shooting continues for the next hour and a half, with the toddler always used by the coward as a make-shift bullet-proof vest. After hitting an officer, Pena goes down, his daughter with him.

During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila—consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession.

Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.

Nightly anti-cop protests at the shooting site have grown so violent that community activists have asked the public to stay away. On July 14, protesters surrounded an officer making a routine traffic stop and began threatening him. He escaped, but the police needed to call a tactical alert for the second night in a row, reports the Times.

The New York Times has been covering the story, too—completely agnostically about where the fault lies. Naturally, they cannot be bothered to share with the public the fact that Pena was illegal—not just illegal, in fact, but, as a returned deportee, an alien felon.

Los Angeles’s newly elected Hispanic mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, has been assiduously careful not to assign blame, even though there can not be a shadow of a doubt about who was the malefactor here. “We’re going to get to the bottom of this,” he said on July 14. “We’re going to examine every fact, [and] there will be transparency throughout. That’s important.” No, more important is to back up your officers who every day put their lives on the line to try to protect people who are happy to see them verbally and physically attacked.

Pena’s abused girlfriend, Lorena Lopez, immediately hired a lawyer. Expect a million-dollar lawsuit against the LAPD and the Los Angeles taxpayers for a murder committed by a man who should not have even been in the country.


also


Another crime that would have never happened in America if we enforced our immigration laws
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 05:03:40 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2005, 07:29:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Manedew
Deleted  

Since you deleted so will I

Offline Manedew

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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2005, 07:31:00 PM »
wow was still looking at things and your posting lol

and yes .... I've had some bad experiances with 'Dirty' cops..... they have a way of ruining your attitude.

I still think the protocol should be examined

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2005, 07:51:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Manedew
wow was still looking at things and your posting lol

and yes .... I've had some bad experiances with 'Dirty' cops..... they have a way of ruining your attitude.

I still think the protocol should be examined


and from reading the actual police report about the incident I think they tried everything they could and the situation got away from them.  If the swat officer had made a clean head shot and the guy dropped and the little girl was saved they'd all be heros.

Of course that would be a risk as well.  These arent you're "pull you over and bust your head light guys".  I know they exist, especially in the LAPD.  I bet 99% of those guys out there wanted to save this little girl more than anything but it just wasn't in the cards.  

to lay blame on the police and not some coked up illegal who has a criminal past and used a little girl as a human shield is apauling to say the least.

Offline AdmRose

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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2005, 09:52:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
He shot one of the cops.

In the heat of the moment I can not blame them for what they did.


The father is 100% responsible.


It is a shame, and those officers are going to have to live with it the rest of their lives. I am sure it will haunt them. Thats enough.


Here here.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 01:05:24 AM »
Hi Rude.  I miss you guys, All of you!

I have been  playing on line in SWG (starwarsgalaxies) but have recently started playing IL2s pacific fighters and have really enjoyed it.  Its quite a bit more complex than what I remember AH2 to be.

Hope all is well with the family back home.  Havent heard from Joe in a long while.  Have you guys heard from him?

Take care Rude, say hi to all the fellas for me!

Keep in touch!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 01:16:51 AM by Yeager »
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns