Author Topic: Just Talk to Her Already  (Read 4014 times)

Offline Silat

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Just Talk to Her Already
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2005, 02:30:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sakai
 So you know this women then?  You know her motivations? Or are you speculating just like everyone else on this thread about why she is doing it?



Does it matter why a grieving mother is doing it? She is out of her mind with grief. I dont really need to know anything more. And I dont think Sakai insinuated that he knows what is in her head. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out though.

Why are grown men pig piling on her? Why is the so called liberal media making it personal. Who cares what her family thinks? Who cares if her husband is divorcing her? She lost her son and is upset.

 She wants answers from a man who has "misrepresented" the reasons for going to war. Her son bought the mans "misrepresentations" and paid the ultimate price.

She isnt going to get the answers she wants but I dont blame her for acting out.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2005, 02:41:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Raider,

Ok let me expand on my previous analogy and then ask you some questions.

Let us say that my call to Pastor this church ends and I get a call to become a missionary in Indonesia with MTW (our denominational Missions organization). I go out to there and while I'm there, I volunteer to help a friend struggling in one of the most heavily Islamist districts of his city. While ministering there I am killed by an angry Muslim mob.

Now let us say that my parents meet with the leaders of MTW who share how sorry they are that I died while carrying out the call I volunteered for, but while assuring them that the cause I died for was ultimately a good one and that consequently my death was not in vain.

Let us assume that my parents were highly atheistic to begin with and not too happy about missions and definitely not happy about me going. But in any event they shake hands with the MTW head, and have their meeting. Then later let us assume that memos are released that claim that MTW leaders knew that the "prospects" for successfully evangelizing that area were just about zero and that there were already several death threats that had been circulated.

So then let us assume that my mother (sorry mom, this is all hypothetical) forms an anti-missions group calling for the immediate recall of all missionaries, and for the trial and removal of the head of MTW. Then she camps out in front of his office and calls him nasty names. Let us also assume that she is joined and supported by atheist and anti-Christian groups. In the meantime the family falls apart, and she gets divorced because of her quest.

So you're telling me:

1) The head of MTW should arrange for a second face to face with her so she can scream abuse at him and demand the end of missions and that this would somehow be "therapeutic" and "help her."
2) That the head of MTW is responsible for my death when I twice volunteered to do somthing I believed in when I knew in advance it was highly  dangerous?
3) That the head of MTW and not the Islamists who killed me should be the ones held responsible because of what a few memos claim about information potentially available?
4) This would be a legitimate use of my name and memory?
5) That that would be "healthy" and "natural" grieving and "not ideological?"
6) That the other groups with a pre-existing agenda jumping in would not be a shameless misuse of her misguided grief?
7) That my staying at home and staying "safe" is always better than giving up my life to try to accomplish something I believe in?
8) That she must be held above all reproach regardless of what she does and says because she is my mother and I died?

I'm sorry, I know I'm thick as a plank, but I'm just not seeing how the answer to all these is "Yes"

- SEAGOON


I can't draw a parallel bewteen you going on missionary work and a soldier dying in service of America. I can't and won't.

The two are not even close to the same. Why not just use the actual scenario, the facts are well known enough, no need for analogies.

say you went off to war and got killed and your mother did what Cindy is doing. She is a mother with a Son who died in a war. Why  is it all you guys try to do is make her look like some twisted person? maybe she is out there, but I would think the death of a child would allow people some leeway, but I guess not.

So what if she is making a political issue out of it???

But I get the feeling that some of you seem to have insight into her grief and feel she is "faking it" to make Bush look bad.  Now if her son turns up alive or something then maybe you will have a leg to stand on but until then, I only see a greiving mother.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2005, 02:43:19 PM »
silat.. I think you hit on it.... she is "out of her mind with grief"..

 No good can come from a meeting with such a person... no answer short of raising her son from the dead will make her happy...  

She cares not for the feelings of the mothers who feel their sons sacrafice was a noble one.   Her insanity is self centered and she believes that only she has the insight into what all other people involved want.

She needs to see someone and often but it isn't Bush.  

lazs

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2005, 02:48:25 PM »
Silat

Well yeah it maters why she is doing it.



Thats the point, I think some people do not believe it is about grief anymore.

You do not know if she is out of her mind with grief or just pissed off or a political puppet letting her sons death be used to make a point. It could be any of them.

You don't know, I don't know the world doesnt know. Its all speculation.


I don't know why she is doing it, I am willing to give her the benifit of the doubt.

I also don't see it as the end of the world if Bush ignores her.


Just because her child died fighting in iraq does not mean she is a good or noble person.  If she was a good and noble person thats great, but if she was a jerk, well the death of her kid does not make her a good person.  


No one knows now, all it is ratings now.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 02:51:39 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2005, 02:49:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sakai
 So you know this women then?  You know her motivations? Or are you speculating just like everyone else on this thread about why she is doing it?


I'm not speculating about crap.  I never said "why" she's doing anything.  I said 1) she gets to express her grief in anyway she chooses without being judged by the pastor and 2) she has a constitutionally protected right to say what she damned well pleases and 3) she has a constitutionally protected right to redress of grievance and if, if mind you, Bush lied then she has a legitimate ***** regarding the death of her son.

Besides, you're not staying on point.  The point is everyone's trying to destroy her and that's evil, unamerican and simply part and parcel of the politics of hatred practiced by the current admin and their lackeys in the press.  

It's unamerican.  

Sakai
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2005, 02:51:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
silat.. I think you hit on it.... she is "out of her mind with grief"..

 No good can come from a meeting with such a person... no answer short of raising her son from the dead will make her happy...  

lazs



No good for who? ohhh no good for  the Bush.... Somehow that shouldn't be what is important.

How do you know what will help make her better? She might get closure, or at least be able to go on with her life afterwards.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2005, 02:53:14 PM »
No one is trying to shut her up or destroy her, they are offering opinions about her. AND that is their right. Just like its hers to protest.


Freedom of speech is funny that way.

People using their freedom of speech to talk about someone is un American?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2005, 02:56:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
No one is trying to shut her up or destroy her, they are offering opinions about her. AND that is their right. Just like its hers to protest.


Freedom of speech is funny that way.

People using their freedom of speech to talk about someone is un American?


ummm yeah some people are...

The guy who decided to shoot his gun off because he was tired of protesters.

The above article I linked where the guy ran over the protesters crosses.

Freedom of speech is one thing, Trying to stifle someone else's is another.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2005, 03:00:06 PM »
Well thats two,  and the truck guy is going to pay dearly for it.

The shotgun guy has a right to discharge a firearm on his land. If he broke a law he will pay too.


The people on this board Sakai is attacking, have the same rights to freedom of speech as she does.

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2005, 03:03:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
silat.. I think you hit on it.... she is "out of her mind with grief"..
She cares not for the feelings of the mothers who feel their sons sacrafice was a noble one.   Her insanity is self centered and she believes that only she has the insight into what all other people involved want.


See, demonize anyone who points out the obvious:  These deaths are starting to appear more and more arbitrary and meaningless.  Sure no one wants to hear they voted a con man and liar into office and that they screamed down anyone who pointed out the obvious.  Sure people want to think their kid died for something.  

Look, 2 to 1 the American people are saying Bush dropped the ball in Iraq.  So this isn't like, you know, just a loony:  she's now the nation asking a simple question:  why do we continue to die for a war no one understands, no one can explain and the rationalization for it has changed a dozen times?  What about being fed a line of poo makes you want to salute?

How many lies is too many?

Liberty is represented vastly more by that woman's stance in Crawford than it is by the ridiculous, unsupportable trash being heaped on her by O'Reilly and Malkin et al.

But you know, to each his own.

Sakai
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 03:49:10 PM by Sakai »
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Offline Sakai

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« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2005, 03:08:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Well thats two,  and the truck guy is going to pay dearly for it.

The shotgun guy has a right to discharge a firearm on his land. If he broke a law he will pay too.


The people on this board Sakai is attacking, have the same rights to freedom of speech as she does.


Yes and no, shotguns aren't expressions of free speech, neither is running over the names of dead troops you say you support.

In fact, excusing that--especially the thinly veiled threat shotgun man made, a threat that in any honest state would have gotten him a visit from a sheriff--is simpy mind boggling.

But all have a right to say what they want, it is the coordinated hate attacks that seem to be unseemly, inappropriate and uniquely unamerican.

But if you don't love the nation, by all means:  pile on, hate someone for no reason.  Hatred is an American value now, ask the GOPand the Christian right.

Sakai
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2005, 03:11:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
I can't draw a parallel bewteen you going on missionary work and a soldier dying in service of America. I can't and won't.

The two are not even close to the same. Why not just use the actual scenario, the facts are well known enough, no need for analogies.

say you went off to war and got killed and your mother did what Cindy is doing. She is a mother with a Son who died in a war. Why  is it all you guys try to do is make her look like some twisted person? maybe she is out there, but I would think the death of a child would allow people some leeway, but I guess not.

So what if she is making a political issue out of it???

But I get the feeling that some of you seem to have insight into her grief and feel she is "faking it" to make Bush look bad.  Now if her son turns up alive or something then maybe you will have a leg to stand on but until then, I only see a greiving mother.


Raider, I used the parallel in an attempt to do a number of things:

1) To show the volunteer nature of the actions in both cases, and how it is possible to die doing what is right and yet have a relative profoundly disagree, be grieved, and use it for purposes at odds with the apparent desires of the person in question.
2) To take the ultra-inflammatory Bush/Iraq elements out of the story and show that my concern lies in the fact that I believe this is wrong regardless of the politics of the thing.

Am I really the only one who thinks that her primary duty should have been to her living kids and to working to preserve the covenant bond between she and her husband? I don't doubt her grief, its just this is a selfish, wrong, and self-destructive way of expressing it. If I desired to sacrifice my kids and my marriage so I could get a second opportunity to scream invectives at the man whom I had translated my grief into hate towards, I would hope that someone on this board would care enough to say, "For heaven's sake man, don't do this." instead of saying "Hey, that's your right dude."

Sheehan's fanatical and single minded pursuit of this cause is reminiscent of what  Paul Johnson wrote of in "Intellectuals" and their willingness to disregard the lives and concerns of living loved ones in order to pursue an idealized political goal. "Everything is subservient to the cause." The moment a mother ignores the call "Come home, we need you" from her living children in order to pursue a political goal, is the moment I have to say, thats  fundamentally wrong.

- SEAGOON
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 03:29:16 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2005, 03:18:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
Yes and no, shotguns aren't expressions of free speech, neither is running over the names of dead troops you say you support.

In fact, excusing that--especially the thinly veiled threat shotgun man made, a threat that in any honest state would have gotten him a visit from a sheriff--is simpy mind boggling.

But all have a right to say what they want, it is the coordinated hate attacks that seem to be unseemly, inappropriate and uniquely unamerican.

But if you don't love the nation, by all means:  pile on, hate someone for no reason.  Hatred is an American value now, ask the GOPand the Christian right.

Sakai



Both the shotgun guy and truck guy will be facing charges if they broke the law as I said in the last post. (You can make the same argument for shotgun firing, as you can for flag burning by the way) (not that I defend the irresponsible use of a firearm as a gun owner. It does not do any gun owners good, in this day and age)

I am not excusing anything; they should not have done it.

You are fooling yourself if you think one party is a hate machine and the other would not do the EXACT same thing if they had the chance. Both suck. Both are out for their own ends and don't give a **** about the people of this nation.

I have not piled on anyone.


You sound JUST like the people you are going after, just the opposite side of the coin. Who is spoon feeding you your opinion?

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2005, 03:20:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
It doesn't matter whether anybody trashes her or not.  Everyone has a right to an opinion, not just "Cindy."


And she should get to have that opinion without a wall of hatred being heaped on her by the right wing press.

When did mindless hatred for political gain become an American value?  Why be so proud of and make excuses for it?

So
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2005, 03:31:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
And she should get to have that opinion without a wall of hatred being heaped on her by the right wing press.

When did mindless hatred for political gain become an American value?  Why be so proud of and make excuses for it?

So



So its hate when you question the motives of a women doing something like this?

People should not question why another person is doing something like this?