Just Talk to Her Already

[Skydancer]

"It's about time to admit Iraq is screwed. We broke it and we can't fix it. They are not gonna have any kind of stable government and Saddam had no WMD."

Sadly..... yep!:(

[lazs2]

How could we have made iraq worse for the people of iraq or the people of the world than the sadman was doing?  We would have to kill 500,000 INOCENT citizens (with no end in sight)  to do that.

lazs

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Raider179
He could simply say because of the unique or extenuating circumstances regarding her loss he was willing to comfort her again. I think it would show compassion on his part, no matter what the outcome.

 

Problem is the only thing unique or extenuating I see in her circumstance is that as someone else said. She wants a "Do over"
With her meeting with the Pres

How many times is he supposed to meet with her? Till he tells her what she wants to hear?
And what good would another meeting do?
Her sons gone. And he isnt comming back. Thats the tragic truth.
But he is gone because of something he volounteered to do..twice. When he already knew what could happen.
Not because of what Bush did.
He knew the score and he chose to go anyway
And thats the sad truth. And thats what she really needs to come to grips with.

the only reason this is such a big story is everyone is out of washington for the summer and with Bush holed up at the ranch. The press is bored to tears.
this is the only story they have so they are running with it.

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Nash
Gunslinger, I'd like you to compare these two sentences:

Casey voluntarily re-enlisted in the Army after his first hitch was up, earned a Bronze Star, and as a mechanic was not expected to see combat but volunteered to join a rapid rescue team being formed to get a convoy of soldiers from his unit out of trouble in Sadr City (that action being the one in which he died).

Casey, who voluntarily re-enlisted in the Army after his first hitch was up, who earned a Bronze Star, and who as a mechanic was not expected to see combat but who volunteered to join a rapid rescue team being formed to get a convoy of soldiers from his unit out of trouble in Sadr City, that action being the one in which he died, seemed want to serve.

One is from Seagoon, and one is from somewhere else. I realize that people are going to get bent out of shape over Sheehan, but I think digging up dirt on this chick is weak.

My apologies Nash, I thought that my intro to thise sections that I wrote: "Elsewhere, it has been confirmed that her son's politics and her own as well as their views of the war have always differed" indicated that I was paraphrasing or quoting what was stated elsewhere. I didn't mean to give the impression that this was first hand material. I've never personally met Sheehan and I didn't know Casey. All I have to go by is what everyone else has, the media electronic and print. For what its worth, the first few articles I read on Sheehan were in the mainstream press.

Anyway, my most sincere apologies for not appropriately sourcing all my material,  I will endeavor not to let it happen again. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa*.

BTW - Do I get docked if I don't strictly adhere to the Turabian Format?

- Seagoon

* The original source of this saying is unknown to the author, but it certainly isn't him.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lazs2
How could we have made iraq worse for the people of iraq or the people of the world than the sadman was doing?  We would have to kill 500,000 INOCENT citizens (with no end in sight)  to do that.

lazs

An Iraqi Civil War could cause that kind of Death toll very easily.

[midnight Target]

I don't care how big the wall of text Seagoon throws up, or where the wall of text is sourced, it is all just politicizing of the ladies situation by BOTH sides of the issue.  

1. Who cares if her family disagrees
2. Who cares if she has wacky views on the middle east?
3. Who cares if she got face time a year ago along with a bunch of other familys?

Bush is an idiot for not meeting with her and has created a cause celeb by his failure. Now BOTH sides of the issue are digging up the talking points to either make the mom look bad or to make the Pres look bad. All of which could have been avoided by a 10 minute meeting. Duh!

[JBA]

Go down pose for a few pics.
Say I'm sorry for your lose,
I understand you want the US out of Iraq,
Thanks for your point of view, we're not doing it,
now good day.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179

5)It's about time to admit Iraq is screwed. We broke it and we can't fix it. They are not gonna have any kind of stable government and Saddam had no WMD. This is why Bush can't face her, because his "goals" are no longer acheivable, and he has nothing he can say now.

Iraq was screwed and broken long before GW1.

We can't fix it but we can sure give the Iraqis the opportunity to fix it. That's exactly what is happening.

The Iraqis will vote on a new Constitution sometime in October or November. The Iraqis will elect a new government in December or January.

Will it be an instant success? I doubt it. Recall that the fledgling US Government had a very difficult time initally and in fact we had to have our own very bloody Civil War to really establish the form of government we have today.

I suppose anyone could look at the first 100 years of trial, tribulation and war and say the US experiment in democracy was a total failure. They'd be wrong, but they could say that.

The Iraqis will get their chance to make it. It may not be perfectly peaceful and it may take a while. They'll get their chance though and it'll be what they make it.

[Toad]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
the only reason this is such a big story is everyone is out of washington for the summer and with Bush holed up at the ranch. The press is bored to tears.
this is the only story they have so they are running with it.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Raider179
You do of course know she testified at the Downing Street Hearings that were held, but of course you knew that right?...

Cindy Sheehan's Speech At The DSM Hearings


I believed before our leaders invaded Iraq in March, 2003, and I am even more convinced now, that this aggression on Iraq was based on a lie of historic proportions and was blatantly unnecessary. The so-called Downing Street Memo dated 23 July, 2003 only confirms what I already suspected:...


But of course your right, it had nothing to do with Downing street

So you agree then that she just wants a do over?

After all, before the invasion she held the same conviction about the war. She says here the DSM didn't change any of her opinions but rather confirmed what she already suspected.

So when she met with Bush the FIRST time she held these convictions and none of them have changed because of the DSM.

Do over, that's all it is. Of course, this time she gets to be on national TV. Everybody gets 15 minutes, right?

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
Iraq was screwed and broken long before GW1.

We can't fix it but we can sure give the Iraqis the opportunity to fix it. That's exactly what is happening.

The Iraqis will vote on a new Constitution sometime in October or November. The Iraqis will elect a new government in December or January.

Will it be an instant success? I doubt it. Recall that the fledgling US Government had a very difficult time initally and in fact we had to have our own very bloody Civil War to really establish the form of government we have today.

I suppose anyone could look at the first 100 years of trial, tribulation and war and say the US experiment in democracy was a total failure. They'd be wrong, but they could say that.

The Iraqis will get their chance to make it. It may not be perfectly peaceful and it may take a while. They'll get their chance though and it'll be what they make it.

Constitution and new government are gonna mean squat if a civil war breaks out. I wonder what the ethnic make-up is of the military/police forces we are "training".

Are you saying Iraq is, or is going to be a democracy? Because that is not what I call government that basis it's rules and laws on Religion. That is a theocracy. And we all know how well behaved theocracies are.

I fear We are gonna sneak out of Iraq at the first opportunity and leave them to their fate, which is not what we promised and hence once more our credibility will get tarnished.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad


So you agree then that she just wants a do over?

After all, before the invasion she held the same conviction about the war. She says here the DSM didn't change any of her opinions but rather confirmed what she already suspected.

So when she met with Bush the FIRST time she held these convictions and none of them have changed because of the DSM.

Do over, that's all it is. Of course, this time she gets to be on national TV. Everybody gets 15 minutes, right?

No disagreement, although your term "do-over" is not what I would say. I would say she wants further clarification.

Bush has made this lady bigger than she would have ever been if he would have just took 5 minutes to speak with her. The longer it goes on the worse it is gonna look for him. I believe it's inevitable that he will meet with her again.

[Toad]

Did I miss some rule that the transition from dictatorship to government by the people has to be bloodless?

Civil War? Did WE have a Civil War? I recall we did; in fact, the low estimates of military casualties in our Civil War are around 620,000.

Did the fact that we had a Civil War mean our Independence wasn't worth it? That we should have never rebelled against the British?

I would prefer that Iraq transition to government by its people without bloodshed. We've already seen that isn't going to happen. There may in fact BE a Civil War; does that mean that living under a dictatorship is a much better solution?

Neither you nor I know what exact form of Government Iraqis will choose. Their proposed Constitution hasn't been release and it won't be voted on until October or November. A bit premature to speculate, I think.

Will their religion play a role in their Constitution? I'm sure it will to some degree. The Christian thought of the US founders played a role in the form and formation of out government. Why would theirs be different?

Originally posted by Raider179
I fear We are gonna sneak out of Iraq at the first opportunity and leave them to their fate, which is not what we promised and hence once more our credibility will get tarnished.

Fear that do you? So do I.

Yet you rarely miss an opportunity to criticize our role in Iraq, undermine the confidence of your fellow Americans in the mission, undermine the CinC and generally do things that will sway American public opinion towards early withdrawal from Iraq.

Before you start, let me clear this up for you:

I supported the invasion based on the information available to the us at the time. I also said the WMD would have to be found to justify the invasion under "just war theory" and that if it was not found that Bush should be held accountable.

Obviously WMD was not found. The US public's main chance to hold Bush accountable was the 2004 election; Bush was returned to office. I did not vote for Bush in 2004.

Now, I think we have to stay until the Iraqis have a fair shot at establishing their new government under their new Constitution. It would be nice if that could all be accomplished with the wave of a wand but it doesn't work that way. There are some severe challenges in Iraq ethnically and religiously but I think the Iraqi people will ultimately "sign on" to the idea and process.

The real question is will the "15 minute attention span" US public have the patience to endure while this real life opportunity for an incredible change in the ME plays out?

And then there's the question of how best do we encourage our fellow Americans to "stay the course".

Excuse me for saying so, but I think your method here on the board is antithetical to encouraging the US to stay the course.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
No disagreement, although your term "do-over" is not what I would say. I would say she wants further clarification.

Yeah, I see. Do you prefer "sanitation engineer" to "janitor" too?

Bush has made this lady bigger than she would have ever been if he would have just took 5 minutes to speak with her.  

No, the media in a slow month has made this lady bigger than she is. That and the monetary support of the "I hate Bush" crowd.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
Did I miss some rule that the transition from dictatorship to government by the people has to be bloodless?

Civil War? Did WE have a Civil War? I recall we did; in fact, the low estimates of military casualties in our Civil War are around 620,000.

Did the fact that we had a Civil War mean our Independence wasn't worth it? That we should have never rebelled against the British?

I would prefer that Iraq transition to government by its people without bloodshed. We've already seen that isn't going to happen. There may in fact BE a Civil War; does that mean that living under a dictatorship is a much better solution?

Neither you nor I know what exact form of Government Iraqis will choose. Their proposed Constitution hasn't been release and it won't be voted on until October or November. A bit premature to speculate, I think.

Will their religion play a role in their Constitution? I'm sure it will to some degree. The Christian thought of the US founders played a role in the form and formation of out government. Why would theirs be different?

 

Fear that do you? So do I.

Yet you rarely miss an opportunity to criticize our role in Iraq, undermine the confidence of your fellow Americans in the mission, undermine the CinC and generally do things that will sway American public opinion towards early withdrawal from Iraq.

Before you start, let me clear this up for you:

I supported the invasion based on the information available to the us at the time. I also said the WMD would have to be found to justify the invasion under "just war theory" and that if it was not found that Bush should be held accountable.

Obviously WMD was not found. The US public's main chance to hold Bush accountable was the 2004 election; Bush was returned to office. I did not vote for Bush in 2004.

Now, I think we have to stay until the Iraqis have a fair shot at establishing their new government under their new Constitution. It would be nice if that could all be accomplished with the wave of a wand but it doesn't work that way. There are some severe challenges in Iraq ethnically and religiously but I think the Iraqi people will ultimately "sign on" to the idea and process.

The real question is will the "15 minute attention span" US public have the patience to endure while this real life opportunity for an incredible change in the ME plays out?

And then there's the question of how best do we encourage our fellow Americans to "stay the course".

Excuse me for saying so, but I think your method here on the board is antithetical to encouraging the US to stay the course.

I think you have the Revolutionary war, which we gained our independence from England, with the Civil War which was North vs. South.

The Iraqi's are not gonna be fighting for "democracy, freedom, or even against terror" They are gonna fight to see who gets to control the other side.

Living with Dictatorship as opposed to getting 2000 of our soldiers get killed so that Iraq can eventually fall into chaos and many more people will die? We didnt have enough boots on the ground at the beginning and we don't have enough there now. If we are gonna do, we ought to do it right. This war has been mis-handled and mis-managed from the get-go.

Here is a link to the preliminary Bill Of rights


http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/BillofRights.pdf

20. a. Freedom of religion, belief, and performance of religious rites are guaranteed in accordance with the law.


23. In addition to the rights stipulated in this constitution Iraqi citizens enjoy the rights stipulated in international treaties, agreements, and international legal documents that Iraq has signed or joined or that are considered binding according to the provisions of international law, so long as these do
not contradict Islam.

8. The state shall provide for harmonization of the duties of the women towards their family and their work in the society. [It shall also provide for] their equality with men in all fields without
disturbing the provisions of the Islamic shari‘a.

21. Freedom of opinion, expression, organization, publishing, printing, the press, media, advertising,meetings, peaceful demonstration, and parties is guaranteed in accordance with the law and insofar as public security and morals are not harmed.

26. Freedom of the press, printing, publishing, media, and advertising are guaranteed and the law regulates the exercise of these freedoms.

27. There shall be no censorship on newspapers, printing, publishing, media, and advertising except by
law.

4. An Iraqi may have more than one nationality as long as the nationality is not Israeli.

All Iraqis are equal before the law without regard to gender, opinion, belief, nationality, religion, or origin. Discrimination on the basis of gender, nationality, religion,origin, or social standing is forbidden. They have the right to personal security in life and
freedom except in accordance with the law. Equality of opportunity is guaranteed to all citizens in accordance with the law.

Just a few excerpts, some good some bad.

I'm  sorry did I miss the part of our Constitution where it says people have certain rights as long as it doesnt contradict Christianity? Cause I missed that part.

Something wrong with being critical? If anyone is "undermined" by my opinions on this BBS I would be very surprised. I am not standing on some street corner trying to convert people to my point of view. I see current events and I discuss my opinion of them. If Only I knew my opinion carried so much weight that I could "undermine the CinC and sway public opinion."

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, I see. Do you prefer "sanitation engineer" to "janitor" too?




No, the media in a slow month has made this lady bigger than she is. That and the monetary support of the "I hate Bush" crowd.

1)Semantics

2)Well someone on Bush's staff duffed it. Shoulda seen it coming and headed it off. Blame on the media if you want, I see another day gone by where he could have ended all the attention she was getting. But I think he was golfing today.