Author Topic: The American Civil War  (Read 2877 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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The American Civil War
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2005, 12:35:02 AM »
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While slavery being one of the precursers and Economic being the fuel, alot of these were because of the souths beleif in the erosion of their state rights.


The biggest state right at the time? .... Slavery

Proof:  The first right mentioned in the SC Seccesion document other that the right to leave the Union....

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In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
 Held in service, escaping to another... What state right were they worried about?

The foundation of the southern economy? .... Slavery

The reason written over a dozen times in the South Carolina declaration?... Slavery


Yeah I guess you guys are right... it was a side issue.
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Offline soda72

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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2005, 12:38:11 AM »
The south needed Slavery for their economy, so they both go hand in hand...  plus don't forget the 2/3rds thing.....

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2005, 12:53:25 AM »
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Slavery in the antebellum South was not a monolithic system; its nature varied widely across the region. At one extreme one white family in thirty owned slaves in Delaware; in contrast, half of all white families in South Carolina did so. Overall, 26 percent of Southern white families owned slaves.

In 1860, families owning more than fifty slaves numbered less than 10,000; those owning more than a hundred numbered less than 3,000 in the whole South. The typical Southern slave owner possessed one or two slaves, and the typical white Southern male owned none. He was an artisan, mechanic, or more frequently, a small farmer. This reality is vital in understanding why white Southerners went to war to defend slavery in 1861. Most of them did not have a direct financial investment in the system. Their willingness to fight in its defense was more complicated and subtle than simple fear of monetary loss. They deeply believed in the Southern way of life, of which slavery was an inextricable part. They also were convinced that Northern threats to undermine slavery would unleash the pent-up hostilities of 4 million African American slaves who had been subjugated for centuries.

Although slavery was at the heart of the sectional impasse between North and South in 1860, it was not the singular cause of the Civil War. Rather, it was the multitude of differences arising from the slavery issue that impelled the Southern states to secede.

The presidential election of 1860 had resulted in the selection of a Republican, Abraham Lincoln of Illinois, as president of the United States. Lincoln won because of an overwhelming electoral college vote from the Northern states. Not a single Southern slave state voted for him. Lincoln and his Republican party were pledged only to stop the expansion of slavery. Although they promised to protect slavery where it existed, white Southerners were not persuaded. The election results demonstrated that the South was increasingly a minority region within the nation. Soon Northerners and slavery's opponents might accumulate the voting power to overturn the institution, no matter what white Southerners might desire.


Slavery was an issue and to some it may have been THE issue but really it was state's rights and the north's oppression on souther states rights
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 12:57:42 AM by Gunslinger »

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2005, 01:07:40 AM »
does anyone find Ironic the posts coming from the Canadian known as Nash as of late? :cool:

Offline rpm

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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2005, 01:19:13 AM »
I think he's takin a class down at the Community College.
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2005, 01:21:11 AM »
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"does anyone find Ironic the posts... "


How so?

I'm inquisitive by nature.

If something starts to act strangely, I'm gonna point my microscope at it.

Today? It's the American Civil War.

Pay attention to what happens in this thread, because that war never really ended. Listen, because you'll understand something you might not have yesterday.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 01:23:25 AM by Nash »

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2005, 03:43:11 AM »
rpm was right mostly in saying it was a war over economics.  But you could just as easily say it was a war about power, and who had it (or didnt).  If you look at the years leading up to the Civil War, in the early 1800s slavery was dying out all on its own.  But then prices started to recover on Cotton.  Soon prices were higher than they had ever been, and southern plantations couldnt produce it in enough quantity to glut the market.  There was a renewed demand for slaves, but no way to get new ones.  Slave owners were allowed to keep the slaves they had, and children of those slaves, but they couldnt bring them in from outside (not legally).  The African slave trade was outlawed.  Some still made the run, and risked being caught.  But those numbers that actually made it through were relatively few.  Abolitionists in free states made the issue worse by flaunting the fact when an escaped slave made the border.  They hid them from collection agents, even from federal agents.  When the new territories in the west started to open up, decisions over whether they would be free or slave states didnt just divide the country, it got downright ugly.  Southerners were so desperate to expand their pool of slaves, they made several attempts at taking over Cuba, and even tried establishing themselves through a coup in South America.  As the 1850s ground on, it became more and more apparent that they were going to get the short end of the stick in the new territories in the West, and the way they saw things, Federal laws favored the more industrialized northern states that didnt rely on slave labor for their economy.  Add to that the fact that American farm produce was more in demand than ever, and money was to be made if only enough could be produced.  The Crimean War in the mid '50s left Europe without a grain supply from Russia, and America was filling that void.  Banks and stocks and bonds and such doubled in number.  California's gold strikes were pumping millions of dollars into the economy.  All of these were seen to put money in the hands of the northern states, while the South's chance for economic boom was being deliberately downplayed.  Western lands were being opened to settlement, and the people were not necessarily open to slavery.  Those lands were supplying much in the way of needed agricultural products, further spreading the wealth and reducing the chances for the South.  

Brown's revolt at Harper's Ferry in 1859 set a spark to something that had been piling up for a long time.  It smoldered until the political conventions of 1860.  Stephen Douglas had been a dividing point for Democrats for years, and this was the one that broke all the straws.  With the south asking for a platform that would mandate federal protection for slavery (not just legal protection), and the northern Democrats refusing to back down, the party was divided forever and the southerners left the convention.  Meanwhile, the Republicans had no problem nominating Lincoln (an avowed anti-slavery advocate, although moderate in his politics).  He united a large part of the new Republican party with some of what remained of the old Whig party.  The remainder of them (the Southern ones) were pro-slavery but still not ready to join Southern Democrats.  As a result of the hotheaded politics, we had a 4 way electios in 1860.  Lincoln vs Douglas vs Bell vs Breckenridge.  Lincoln and Douglas were seen as the "Northern" candidates, and both equally hated in the South.  I think we know who won.    Bitterness and anger over the elections that year took that smoldering spark and fanned it into the flames of secession.  

The Confederate States of America organized itself, set up shop, and drafted a constitution within 3 months of Lincoln's election.  On Dec. 20th 1860, S. Carolina's legislature voted 169 to 0 to secede from the Union.  Mississippi joined on Jan. 9th 1861, Florida on Jan. 10th, Alabama on Jan. 11th, Georgia on Jan. 19th, Louisiana on Jan. 26th and Texas on Feb. 1st.  After the fall of Ft. Sumter they were joined by Virginia, Arkansas, N. Carolina, and Tennessee.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2005, 08:15:44 AM »
geeze nash... hasn't anything interesting ever happened in canada?

Those who would wave a rebel flag or sympathize with the southern side of the war between the state these days tend to do it on the basis of states rights and... more importantly... on the basis of the feeling that the federal government... run by the city dwellers.... is getting too powerful.

even you must have looked at our election maps... the states are again indeed divided... it is not blue and grey tho... it is blue and red.

The same thing is happening... the people who huddle together in the filthy cities want to tell the people who live off the land or in the countryside.... how they should live and make rules that are federal in nature and favor the taxi riders.

for instance... banning or near banning of cars is no hardship for the sissy city dwellers who have never even rode in one that didn't have a meter on it...  banning guns that friegten them affects those who live an hour away from a police or fire station...  

It is basicly urban vs suburban... red vs blue... individuals vs socialists.    The city dwellers have espoused big governemnt and womanly socialism and wish to inflict it on those who wish to remain individuals...

a rebel flag is good for a symbol until something better comes along... it is also heritage.   The southerners fought as bravely ans any warriors have ever fought in any war... they should be revered.  I doubt that more than a handfull of people on either side see it as a symbol of racism.

lazs

Offline indy007

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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2005, 08:29:43 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
I doubt that more than a handfull of people on either side see it as a symbol of racism.


Only the ones that shout the loudest.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2005, 08:40:39 AM »
yes indy.... and they reside on either side of the issue.

lazs

Offline stantond

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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2005, 08:44:39 AM »
Yes, the civil war does affect some people to this day.  There are constant reminders at battle fields, persons (quite coherent and intelligent) who are reinactors, blood lines and families who have relics from that era.  Over 500,000 Americans were killed then, more than all other conflicts added together in the history of the US.  It was an incredible and tragic event which happened only 140 years ago, which is about 3 generations.  

To some, it is a constant reminder behind the ideology of States rights versus Federalism.  And those ideological differences can still be heard in the US Congress.  Slavery was not the cause of the civil war.  Ending slavery was a punitive measure resulting from the war and slavery would have probably continued another 40 years without a civil war.  Not that slavery is good, it is bad.  Just read roman history.

Or ask a black person (African American, etc) about how slavery, which ended 140 years ago, still affects them.   The civil war was a 'big event' historically for people in the US.  


Regards,

Malta

Offline indy007

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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2005, 09:10:15 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
yes indy.... and they reside on either side of the issue.

lazs


Well, the the vast majority of the time (99.9%+) I see the flag symbolism issue of heritage vs racism being argued... it's on bumper stickers.




on a completely different note, there is a picture of me on the wall in my parents house.. taken at one of those photo shops where they dress you up in period costumes. I'd geuss I was maybe 13 or 14 at the time. I'm decked out in a Confederate officer's uniform (hat, sword, the whole 9 yards). The part that always grabs me, is that every older person that sees it says the exact same thing: "Back then, they went to war at that age."

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2005, 09:28:10 AM »
I have flown the Stars and Bars for a long time. To me it has nothing to do with racism and I frankly find those that support that theory to be completely ridiculous.
  It is a proud symbol to me of my heritage
and family history and a tribute to the 13.
  When I had my shop, which was right next to my house, it was located on a major highway. I erected a flag pole and flew the Confederate flag constantly. Only derogatory comment that I ever heard came from a white man.
  Early one morning  the president of the African Bandits MC had came to buy some
saddlebags, shirts, etc. We were standing directly under the Confedrate flag have a big BS session. It dawned on me, so I asked him if he found it offensive in any way.
  His answer was "Hell no. That flag represents my heritage as much as anyone alive". Pretty well summed it up for me.
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Offline Reschke

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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2005, 10:06:30 AM »
Having read the letters my great great grandfather sent home from fighting in the Civil War things dawned on me that I had not learned about from the history classes when I was in school. After having been taught that the Civil War was about slavery...well to a point that was incorrect. Slavery was an issue but not the main issue. To my great great grandfather it was about maintaining his land and rights as a citizen of the state of Alabama first and the United States of America up until he joined his regiment when his allegiance passed on to Alabama and the CSA second.

To see his words (written as eloquently as possible for a man with an equivalent 9th grade education) be written with the passionate feeling and heart while marching from one battle to the next or lying wounded in a hospital after a miniball passed through his neck really touched my soul. For him the passion was protecting his homeland and his new nation from an aggressor who in his view continued to want to destroy all he had worked for on his farm.

Then once the war was over and he was mustered out he continued to send letters home on his two year march back home. In that time he showed an almost instant reversal of feelings for the United States. I have been told that not only did he love his nation but he had promised to defend against any aggressor both foreign and domestic until the day he died. That was something he held closer than anything else.

So to answer does it effect me daily...not really but it is a part of my heritage and it will always be a part of my family no matter how far we get from that part of our nations history.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 10:09:19 AM by Reschke »
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Offline Seeker

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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2005, 10:09:28 AM »
See Rule #5
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 12:05:18 PM by Skuzzy »