Originally posted by lazs2
raider... your lack of understanding about firearms continues to amaze me. You claim to be a firearms expert... Have you ever even owned a firearm? What was it and what happened to it? You must at least realize the there is no possible way to tell if a bullet came from a semi auto, bolt action or converted gun right? well.... you do now.
first of all... watch the documentaries... everyone agrees that the ATF fired first.... then... they emptied their guns into the church through the windows and doors when they got shot back at... they literaly ran out of ammo and surrendered to the davidians... they gave up... the dividians allowed them to take their dead and wounded and retreat... they could have killed every single unarmed (no ammo) ninja but they didn't.
The warrrant... well... actually the warant is 2/3 about child abuse.... nothing to do with ATF.... the rest.... is ... well...about nothing since they have the wrong number for the offense on the warrant.
The ATF called the press to watch em make a big bust... they chased off the press when they got their butts kicked and.... they "lost" five tapes from five different cameras that would easily show who fired first.
As for how I believe.... I believe as the courts found.... that the davidians were innocent of murder... that they had a right, a duty, to shoot back at unidentified ninjas shooting up their home. Not one Davidian was charged with murder or shooting at federal officers.
To this day... the congressional investigators request for the "machine guns" for their experts to examine has not been honored... no proof of any machine gun has been shown by federal authorities. They have refused any attempt to examine the weapons in question.
but... say korresh had a converted semi auto or two... And... since he didn't pay the $200 each to regester em....
Just how many children do you think should be killed for each $200 uncollected tax raider? Is 4 or 5 a good number? maybe 20? how bout suspicion of a machine gun? that should be good for at least a couple of children mowed down by ATF "legal" (and very real) machine guns.
The crying ATF agent who was pleading with congress in the documentary to understand that his men were outgunned....that they only had 9 mm pistols against "223" assault weapons.... and then the video of his men pouring full auto fire into the walls and windows of the building with full auto M16's (machine guns) and Mp5's (sub machine guns) is sickening.
But... I would settle for... every single person caught in a lie in that hearing....I would settle for them being fired on the spot.
Watch the documentaries and see if you don't agree.
lazs
I didn't claim expert status I leave that to you. I said I have extensive fire-arms training. No, I don't own. I don't feel the need to carry.
The weapons were converted from semi to fully. That is illegal.
Disagree about the ammo. If you can show me a link that says otherwise I will concede the point but the video's I have seen show armed guns up ATF agents covering the "retreat".
The warrant is about Illegally modified fire-arms and 90 pounds of AL metal.
Somehow I doubt even an inspection by an expert would convince you the guns from waco were in fact converted. You would probably just say oh the fbi did it before handing the guns to the expert or some other moon landing conspiracy.
You can't put a dollar amount on children's lives.
The people at Mt. Carmel lost their lives because they decided to play hardball with the Federal Government. It's that simple. It should have ended after the initial assault. INSTEAD the BD's decided they are gonna stay put for 2+ months. They should have and could have come out during any of that time. They choose not to, and they choose badly.
By the way some people did leave prior to the fire. To bad more of the parents weren't smart enough to realize it was a dangerous situation for their kids and send them outside.
http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoone.htmlDate Departed
February 28 4 children
March 1 10 children
March 2 4 children
2 adults
March 3 1 child
March 4 1 child
March 5 1 child
March 12 2 adults
March 19 2 adults
March 21 7 adults
March 23 1 adult
TOTALS: 21 Children
14 Adults
Additionally, 9 adults left the compound during the fire on April 19. Therefore, 44 people (21 children and 23 adults) left the compound at one time or another during the standoff.
"By the time the FBI arrived on the scene during the afternoon of February 28, the Branch Davidians believed that the ATF had fulfilled Koresh's prophesies, and had signalled the imminent end of the world. "
Those who stayed had NO intention of ever leaving they were there to die. To be part of the fulfillment of Koresh's propehcy about the end of the world.
"The prosecutors had the responsibility to preserve and develop evidence for the eventual prosecution of the Branch Davidians on the original weapons charges, as well as on homicide and assault charges resulting from the shoot-out on the 28th. Also, the prosecutors had to develop a legal strategy to separate those individuals who would be criminally charged from those individuals who were merely witnesses, and to ensure that all were either held in jail or released with sufficient guarantees to ensure their appearances at trial"
"At approximately 4:55 p.m., several ATF agents were ambushed by three individuals as the agents crossed a field near the compound. The ATF agents returned the gunfire, killing one individual and capturing another. The third individual escaped. The person who died was later identified (following the recovery of his body on March 3) as Michael Schroeder. The person arrested was Norman Washington Allison (a/k/a Delroy Nash), and the person who escaped was Robert Kendrick. Kendrick was arrested several days later. All three individuals were Branch Davidians who had been at another location called the "Mag Bag"(4) and were attempting to shoot their way into the compound. "
Trying to shoot their way into the compound. Yeah bunch of real law-abiding upright citizens we got here.
"At 2:29 p.m., Koresh demanded that he be able to broadcast his religious teachings over the radio before he, or any one, would come out of the compound."
At 8:55 p.m. the first two children came out of the compound. They were Angelica Sonobe, age 6, and Crystal Sonobe, age 3.
At 9:42 p.m., two more children came out. They were Renae studmuffinan, age 6, and Neharah studmuffinan, age 4. Negotiations continued with no additional progress that night.
Koresh complained bitterly when he realized that his telephone lines had been restricted, permitting him to dial out only to the negotiators. At 5:52 p.m., Koresh warned that if the telephone lines were not immediately reopened, the government would be responsible for the deaths of the children.
After many angry threats, and after repeated efforts of the negotiators to calm him down, Koresh finally calmed down and agreed to resume sending children out.
Koresh used himself, others, and the children as bargaing chips so that he could broadcast his "religious message". Helluva guy you are defending.
"As part of delivering his message, Koresh agreed that if a taped message of his was played nationwide, everyone, including Koresh himself, would come out. "
Again using himself and the children and the other adults to gain leverage in a dangerous situation so he could "spread his message".
"The audiotape Koresh made was approximately one hour long. CBN reiterated its agreement to broadcast the tape unedited; however, Craig Smith, the host of the show, made it clear to the FBI that the broadcast was contingent on Koresh's agreeing in advance to surrender immediately after the tape was played. At approximately 10:30 a.m., after listening to the tape, the FBI determined the tape was not satisfactory, because Koresh had failed to state clearly his intentions to surrender. At 11:24 a.m., the negotiators contacted Koresh to discuss the omission of any surrender language on the tape. Koresh agreed to read the following preamble on the telephone so that it could be recorded by the FBI on the audiotape to be broadcast: "I agree that upon the broadcasting of this tape, I will immediately come out peacefully with all my people."
"Meanwhile, at 1:30 p.m., the tape began to be broadcast over the radio. Between 1:30 p.m. and 2:47 p.m.., the negotiators worked out the logistics for the pending surrender with both Schneider and Koresh. It was agreed that Koresh would come out first on the stretcher carried by four males. Koresh was to be accompanied by an unknown number of women and children. Steve Schneider was to remain in the compound to coordinate the exit of the remaining individuals once the first group had been removed from the scene. The plan was that Schneider would send out one person approximately every two to three minutes. "
