good book...

[lazs2]

raider...whew... this is pretty strange... the AtF agents are "undercover" so they have to wear masks?   Who are they undercover from?  They are seeking the arest of individuals not gangs or mobs or even organizations.... Who are they afraid of?   You  claim they are "protecting us"  soooo.... why wear masks like common thugs in the night?

Shouldn't we all have a look at these brave soldiers who are protecting us from.... from what?   a gun owner?  If they are doing right then they need not put on masks like common thugs simply to arrest middle aged hobbiests and white seperatists and the members of a church?  

Oh wait... not just any gun owner..one who may convert a gun to full auto without paying the $200 tax first??  That's is reason enough for a no knock full on assault on a citizens home right?  and.... who knows... he might be part of a vast cabal that will see the faces of these ninjas and.... point at them...  Maybe take their pictures..  Who do most of us fear more... a gun owner or the ATF?

At waco... Not one... nope... not one gun ownned by those in the church... yep... church not "compound"   not one gun was ever proven to have been illegaly converted (no $200 tax paid) to full auto.... if so... why were none of the survivors charged with any gun crime at all?

you seem to feel that owning a number of guns is enough to send in the waco ninja killers.... What number would that be comrad?  

As a reasonable man who knows about these things...How many guns should I be able to own before you feel threatened enough to send in the waco killers?

And... there is documentary proof of ATF "experts" trying to make a case that a gun with a worn sear is a "converted" weapon and cases of a person with nothing more than muffler tubing and fender washers in his garage being arrested for silencer parts...  sure.... you will get off but not before they destroy your home and force you to spend everything you have to defend yourself in court... and you better do it too because if you lose.... 5 years in federal pen.... more than most rapists and burglars get.

but still.... I would like to know what organization you feel that the atf ninjas need to be hidden behind masks from... the NRA perhaps?   The guys mother or father?  Why don't city police go around in ninja masks?  Certainly they run into much more violent and organized criminals than the middle aged hobbiests that the brave ATF goes after?

I don't expect to get any answers from you that make any sense and I don't expect you to read the book or the award nominated documentaries that sparked new congressional investigations into waco.   You would merely denny what your eyes and ears seen and heard.

lazs

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179
They were heavily armed extremists who decided to fight it out with the government and they lost.
 

  Well..I see you wasn`t up to the challenge of explaining away procedure , law, rights, etc when it came to the kids. To be expected, no biggy.
  Ok, so you keep saying extremists. Extremist what? Who decided they were extremists? Who put theirself above the law that made it OK to kill kids?
  Who`s government did they decide to fight it out with? I can tell you it wasn`t representitive of MY government. By that I mean the government of the U.S. they lost? Lives were lost, but what they stood up against certainly wasn`t lost. The initial battle for sure wasn`t lost. They handed the feds their behinds in a basket. That`s sad in itself seeing how their was some good people with families wearing them shields that lost their life because of some history making , terrible decisions and directives.

Conversion is when you change a semi to fully. What you have "done all your life" is modification.

 You haven`t a clue what I`ve done all my life. You also , evidently, don`t have a clue of the issue here. You have never participated if your posts are factual

.

Your absolute power argument is ridiculous

Is it? Tell me what you know about absolute power at your young age. You can`t because you don`t seem to be able to grasp even the possibilty of it , not to mention the concept.
  Find yourself a WWII Vet or a family member who survived or fought against the Nazi regime. They can probably explain 'absolute power" to you and make you understand it.
  i know if my dad were still alive he could certainly make you see the light. I watched, in pride, as he hobbled around on two feet that was supposed to be amputated. Him and many like him fought and died against 'absolute power". They did this to defend and uphold what was right and to defeat "absolute power" and it`s sheer horrors.
  To disrepect that and those before them and all the lives that have been sacrificed so that younguns such as yourself could have the right to voice assinine beliefs and opinions and live in freedom without tyranny is , to say the least, disturbing. I expect you will change a lot of your views on things with age so long as people are willing to defend human rights and our constitution. You haven`t the slightest clue about what you are spouting.

What exactly did YOU do to Monitor and Regulate the government?

 I vote. I speak out in any direction possible when I see government overstepping it`s bounds and authority.
  I`ve found, through the years, that organizations such as the NRA has a big voice in what is and isn`t allowed in our country. Public opinion counts when it is done in the proper way. You get down past the mumbo/jumbo it boils down to votes son. That`s what every politician in this day and time is out for.
  You seem to come off as being totaly afraid to speak your mind, as for as government goes, and seem to think that the citizens of this country have no alternative but to sit and watch, not to participate in protecting the rights and laws this country was founded and based on.
    I`m glad you are a minority. If you were not the makers of Vaseline would be number one in industry.

lmao I will stand up against the government IF and WHEN it is ever necessary but I see absolutely NO reason for it at present.

 I know son and that`s some sad chit. We are the government unless people freely hand over their rights and lose their friggen backbone such as you seem to have done.
  If in the last week or so you haven`t learned that the powers that be, if left to their own devices, without public intervention, will protect and provide for you , then you probably will never. You are most likely going to be dead weight as you are now.

LOL look if the guy you want to arrest is hoarding automatic weapons and explosives and is talking about the end of the world and how he is the savior you don't go "Knock on the door". You go in fast and you go in strong

 Sure you do. It worked out real well for them, didn`t it?   they got their butts handed  to them in a sling.
  People were in and out of there on a daily basis without a problem.
  Detain David at the lumber yard , knock on the door, serve the warrant. No prob.
  When someone professes to be the saviour and nobody can recall them walking on water or turning water into wine, you treat them as any other emotionaly disturbed person. What you don`t do is kill a bunch of innocent people in a showboat for media coverage storm trooper assault. Senseless and stupid, not to mention against every thing this country stands for.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Silat
Wow!! What a concept. A president that actually takes responsibility and admits mistakes.

Remind of the punishments meted out for Waco.

Repsonsibility? " I did not have...."

I think you know the rest.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179
Perhaps you missed the cops that shot the guy and the baby a few weeks ago.(LA I think) Someone starts shooting, Police, law enforcement, whoever is gonna do what they have to, to make that threat go away.

Tell me again who the baby was a threat to.
 If you are professional and you are following procedure at the first hint of a threat to an innocent, you pull back, IMMEDIATELY, regroup and negoiate.
  When you put on the shield and take the oath you have put your life on the line. You have sworn to protect innocent lives, even at the cost of your own.

Not only to mention as I recall no children were shot from the initial assault if even at all during the siege.

  Exactly what are you recalling from?
It makes it OK to slaughter children and innocent people by fire after the initial assault?
"OK guys, don`t kill any kids on the way in. We`re going to burn them to death later" That your idea of correct?

If I also remember correctly You may fire on anyone who is endangering yours or someone else's life

  You can fire on anyone, at anytime, but yes you are correct and that is exactly what the people in the compound did.
  They repelled a lawless attack.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lazs2
raider...whew... this is pretty strange... the AtF agents are "undercover" so they have to wear masks?   Who are they undercover from?  They are seeking the arest of individuals not gangs or mobs or even organizations.... Who are they afraid of?   You  claim they are "protecting us"  soooo.... why wear masks like common thugs in the night?

Shouldn't we all have a look at these brave soldiers who are protecting us from.... from what?   a gun owner?  If they are doing right then they need not put on masks like common thugs simply to arrest middle aged hobbiests and white seperatists and the members of a church?  

Oh wait... not just any gun owner..one who may convert a gun to full auto without paying the $200 tax first??  That's is reason enough for a no knock full on assault on a citizens home right?  and.... who knows... he might be part of a vast cabal that will see the faces of these ninjas and.... point at them...  Maybe take their pictures..  Who do most of us fear more... a gun owner or the ATF?

At waco... Not one... nope... not one gun ownned by those in the church... yep... church not "compound"   not one gun was ever proven to have been illegaly converted (no $200 tax paid) to full auto.... if so... why were none of the survivors charged with any gun crime at all?

you seem to feel that owning a number of guns is enough to send in the waco ninja killers.... What number would that be comrad?  

As a reasonable man who knows about these things...How many guns should I be able to own before you feel threatened enough to send in the waco killers?

And... there is documentary proof of ATF "experts" trying to make a case that a gun with a worn sear is a "converted" weapon and cases of a person with nothing more than muffler tubing and fender washers in his garage being arrested for silencer parts...  sure.... you will get off but not before they destroy your home and force you to spend everything you have to defend yourself in court... and you better do it too because if you lose.... 5 years in federal pen.... more than most rapists and burglars get.

but still.... I would like to know what organization you feel that the atf ninjas need to be hidden behind masks from... the NRA perhaps?   The guys mother or father?  Why don't city police go around in ninja masks?  Certainly they run into much more violent and organized criminals than the middle aged hobbiests that the brave ATF goes after?

I don't expect to get any answers from you that make any sense and I don't expect you to read the book or the award nominated documentaries that sparked new congressional investigations into waco.   You would merely denny what your eyes and ears seen and heard.

lazs

Lazs First I just want to say I appreciate your patience and tone. I do not claim to be an expert on guns but thanks anyway for trying to express your views instead of just being arrogant and obnoxious. Now lets get dirty. lol

1)You obviously do not understand the idea of "undercover police". Its simple, law enforcement that goes undercover can not just show their face. To do so jeopardizes their careers, lives, and lives of their families and those who have worked with them. I do understand your point though. I just disagree about the necessity of doing it.

2)You dont really count the Branch Davidian as a church do you? Either way I don't care if its a church or just a bunch of individuals. Koresh (their Jesus) brought that upon them.

3)I have no problems with no-knock warrants. I think the safety of the officers outweighs anything you can put up against a no-knock.

4)Ummm I just quoted a link where they had 46 converted weapons. Now surely you arent gonna tell me converted doesnt mean they took semi-autos and made them fully's? Also how bout the AL metal they got in the UPS shipment? how about the modified grenades? Plenty of good reason to go in with a no-knock.

5)The number of guns is irrelevant. The explosives and illegal conversions are enough to go in with. I could care less about actual numbers of the legal fire-arms it's the illegal weaponary that makes the case.

6)If you had illegal weaponary the number does not matter. You live in America follow the law or leave. Again see Socrates/Aristole on the duty of a citizen.

7)You have no idea wether the person charged was actually converting weapons or not. I am sure they had something that made them think that guy was making silencers or suppressors. Link it plz.

8)The "ninja's" need to hide their identity so that when they go Undercover, someone doesnt recognize them and kill them. It's not an organization they dont want to see them it's the criminal populace.

9)I have seen the documentary including all the infra-red footage . I still maintain that the Branch Davidians the responsibility rests. They were in there for 2+ months. They had plenty of time to come out and have their say in court, instead they decided to fight it out and they lost. Lesson "Don't fight the government with guns, Fight them in court"

10)I also watched the senate hearings and have seen the survivors testify. None of it makes me feel like they were right and the government was wrong. In my eyes it was an insurrection and it got dealt with severly. I personally wish they would have went in earlier and not wasted so much tax-payer money on people who REFUSED to obey the laws that we have.

Question, why did the Branch Davidians not come out after the initial assault?

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, I'm not.  Any single person with a third grade education can come in here and pick out your inconsistancies.  Any single person but you.


By me being here and rediculing you, I have brought all watching eyes upon you.  Any leverage or credibility you had, is now gone.


Enjoy your day.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Laser where did Lasz eat up my inconsistencies?

Where did he get me for all the crap you "Won't talk about because it's so obviously stupid"?

You can't do anything but cheer or boo from the sidelines. I knew it as soon as you said "Wait for Lasz" instead of entering in on your own. Grow a pair.

Now that no-one has supported or brought to light your accusations against me kinda makes you look stupid doesnt it?

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Well..I see you wasn`t up to the challenge of explaining away procedure , law, rights, etc when it came to the kids. To be expected, no biggy.
  Ok, so you keep saying extremists. Extremist what? Who decided they were extremists? Who put theirself above the law that made it OK to kill kids?
  Who`s government did they decide to fight it out with? I can tell you it wasn`t representitive of MY government. By that I mean the government of the U.S. they lost? Lives were lost, but what they stood up against certainly wasn`t lost. The initial battle for sure wasn`t lost. They handed the feds their behinds in a basket. That`s sad in itself seeing how their was some good people with families wearing them shields that lost their life because of some history making , terrible decisions and directives.


 
 You haven`t a clue what I`ve done all my life. You also , evidently, don`t have a clue of the issue here. You have never participated if your posts are factual

.

 

Is it? Tell me what you know about absolute power at your young age. You can`t because you don`t seem to be able to grasp even the possibilty of it , not to mention the concept.
  Find yourself a WWII Vet or a family member who survived or fought against the Nazi regime. They can probably explain 'absolute power" to you and make you understand it.
  i know if my dad were still alive he could certainly make you see the light. I watched, in pride, as he hobbled around on two feet that was supposed to be amputated. Him and many like him fought and died against 'absolute power". They did this to defend and uphold what was right and to defeat "absolute power" and it`s sheer horrors.
  To disrepect that and those before them and all the lives that have been sacrificed so that younguns such as yourself could have the right to voice assinine beliefs and opinions and live in freedom without tyranny is , to say the least, disturbing. I expect you will change a lot of your views on things with age so long as people are willing to defend human rights and our constitution. You haven`t the slightest clue about what you are spouting.


 

 I vote. I speak out in any direction possible when I see government overstepping it`s bounds and authority.
  I`ve found, through the years, that organizations such as the NRA has a big voice in what is and isn`t allowed in our country. Public opinion counts when it is done in the proper way. You get down past the mumbo/jumbo it boils down to votes son. That`s what every politician in this day and time is out for.
  You seem to come off as being totaly afraid to speak your mind, as for as government goes, and seem to think that the citizens of this country have no alternative but to sit and watch, not to participate in protecting the rights and laws this country was founded and based on.
    I`m glad you are a minority. If you were not the makers of Vaseline would be number one in industry.

 

 I know son and that`s some sad chit. We are the government unless people freely hand over their rights and lose their friggen backbone such as you seem to have done.
  If in the last week or so you haven`t learned that the powers that be, if left to their own devices, without public intervention, will protect and provide for you , then you probably will never. You are most likely going to be dead weight as you are now.

 

 Sure you do. It worked out real well for them, didn`t it?   they got their butts handed  to them in a sling.
  People were in and out of there on a daily basis without a problem.
  Detain David at the lumber yard , knock on the door, serve the warrant. No prob.
  When someone professes to be the saviour and nobody can recall them walking on water or turning water into wine, you treat them as any other emotionaly disturbed person. What you don`t do is kill a bunch of innocent people in a showboat for media coverage storm trooper assault. Senseless and stupid, not to mention against every thing this country stands for.

1)I did explain it, you just didnt agree with it. Big difference. Like I said the parents and Koresh are to blame for the kids deaths not the government. No one forced them to stay in the Compound for 2 months when they could have walked out and had their "fair trial"

2)Oh ok I guess that people that believe their leader is Jesus and that the world is ending are not extremists



3)The davidians put themselves above the law and thats why kids got killed.

4) The feds could have taken the compound at anytime they wanted to but they didnt. That should say something to you but I bet it passes right over your head. Why did the feds engage in negotiations for 2 MONTHS if they just wanted to kill all the "innocent" people?

5)Finally someone who recognizes that federal agents are not all "ninja's"

6)Your the one who didnt know the difference between conversion and modification so what am I supposed to think with your "whole life" experience leaving you unable to discern the difference bewteen the two.

7)Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Yet I don't see absolute power in our government. I see checks and balances and courts. The answer is not a gun, it lays in debate and discussion.

8)We have larger problems right now than stupid guns. I am sorry you don't understand that.

9)To say I dishonor anyone or am somehow unamerican which is what you are saying basically, is dishonor to those people. They fought so I could voice my opinion no matter what it is.

10) So basically you are an NRA member and that is your way of "monitoring and regulating the government". That is weak. Wow you do a good job of keeping the government in line. Don't chide others on their not keeping tabs (on the gov't) when all you do is subscribe to a magazine/website.

11)I speak my mind plenty on the government and have been involved with more government agents/officials than I am sure you have ever seen. I have no problems expressing how I feel about both with the experience from having dealt with lots of them. I am opinionated as hell and how you could say I am afraid to speak my mind just shows me you have already pre-judged anything I have to say.

12)I am not the minority. Automatic weapons are illegal for the general populace, there is a waiting peroid, Felons cannot own guns. These are all things I agree with and they are the law. Looks like you are the minority not me. (not counting are the republican cronies on this board that hide behind "libertarian" stauts.

13)I have extensive fire-arms training so not sure what you mean. It's been awhile since I have been to the range but I still like to go shoot. In fact we have a place in athens that rents fully's that I have been meaning to go visit, just been busy with school and work.

14)LoL I have been waiting on the NO reference. Does "Mandatory Evacuation" mean anything to you? My family we have lived on the GA coast for 15 years leaves when hurricanes come, maybe its cause we can afford to since we don't blow tons of cash on guns and bullets. I don't rely on the government for anything besides protection from external invasion and maybe some good roads. Beyond that I expect nothing.

15) Like I said you just gonna arrest their jesus and then go knock on the door? I would hate to be on a swat team with you in charge. You would lead to a lot more casulties than there would have been.

Please don't call me son. You are not my dad and act nothing like him. He is retired customs service of 24 years.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
Remind of the punishments meted out for Waco.

Repsonsibility? " I did not have...."

I think you know the rest.

Were any Feds charged in Waco? I dont know just asking.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Tell me again who the baby was a threat to.
 If you are professional and you are following procedure at the first hint of a threat to an innocent, you pull back, IMMEDIATELY, regroup and negoiate.
  When you put on the shield and take the oath you have put your life on the line. You have sworn to protect innocent lives, even at the cost of your own.

 

  Exactly what are you recalling from?
It makes it OK to slaughter children and innocent people by fire after the initial assault?
"OK guys, don`t kill any kids on the way in. We`re going to burn them to death later" That your idea of correct?



 

  You can fire on anyone, at anytime, but yes you are correct and that is exactly what the people in the compound did.
  They repelled a lawless attack.

Are you a cop? If not please don't speak like you are one.

Lawless attack lol

Perhaps you should go look at the warrant. That might give you some insight into why there was a LEGAL warrant issued.

[Raider179]

Now a few questions for you pro-waco guys.

1)Were there illegal weapons at Waco?

2)Were there illegal explosives at Waco?

3)Was Koresh sexually molesting children at Waco?

4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?

5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?

6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?

7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?

Simple questions, yes or no will suffice but if you care to expand I will be glad to read and see what you have to say.

[GRUNHERZ]

Is this a ninja?

[T0J0]

Originally posted by Yeager
Im simply AMAZED MP8 has not LOCKED this thread.....

Not that it deserves being locked, it doesn't  (thats my point).

Dont provoke the gods of ambiguity...For godsake man run...run for your life....

TJ

[lazs2]

ok raider... you say that the ATF, "F" troop as the other agencies call them, need to go undercover when they raid private citizens homes in the middle of the night with no knock warrants... You never said why... you seem to admit that they are not going up against organized crime here.

The "converted" guns.   To this day not one of the "converted" guns has ever been released for examination even after congress asked for it to be done so... but... say that they were... if you saw the vid you know that Koresh told ATF agents months before that they were welcome to come over and examine all of his firearms.  This is standard procedure... there were several FFL dealers in the church and they are bound by law to inspection... this is the normal way to do things.

If you saw the FLIR as did congress... you know that one thing is sure... Every single thing that the ATF and even the FBI said was a lie.   They never once told the truth ever.... every tape or log or bit of evidence that was made and would prove them to be truthful or liars that was in their hands was somehow missing.... every indipendent piece of evidence contradicted everything they said.  FBI  "we did not fire one shot at the Davidians"  cut to Flir images of FBI or delta teams under the FBI machine gunning the building while it was on fire and people were trying to escape... they machine gunned the only exit.

The ATF did go to the door... they actually drove by and when they seen karresh they opened fire and killed a 2 year old and an old man... that was the first shots fired... no warning.  

The ATF fired till they ran out of bullets.  they were then helpless.  The davidians allowed them to take their dead and wounded... the film shows ATF with hands in the air walking backwards while other agents are carrying dead and wounded... the davidians could have slaughtered the unarmed ATF buffoons at that point.  They didn't.... they kept their word.

Or maybe you didn't really see the award nominated vid?  It is "Rules of Engagement"   you owe it to yourself to watch it...  you will find that you are in good company... the KKK offered to help the ATF.

lazs

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179
1) Like I said the parents and Koresh are to blame for the kids deaths not the government. No one forced them to stay in the Compound for 2 months when they could have walked out and had their "fair trial"
 

...And like I said numerous times their interest was in David alone. He could have been gotten away from the compound on any given week without the storm trooper tactics.
  The rest would have been simple. There was no need for the whole fiasco other than a showboat session  which was supposed to get "good press".
  Fair trial my aching back. Yea, I`m sure they felt certain that they would get a "fair trial" after what they had been through and had witnessed in the past concerning situations like this.

4) The feds could have taken the compound at anytime they wanted to but they didnt. That should say something to you but I bet it passes right over your head

  Their first attempt doesn`t seem to show that.
  I think if anything is passing over anyone`s head it is the fact that after the initial "showboat" attack, they had their butts in a crack legaly and had the public eye on them. The time was spent shuffling blame and with attorneys trying to dig a way out with as much damage control, politicaly, as possible.
 

Why did the feds engage in negotiations for 2 MONTHS if they just wanted to kill all the "innocent" people?

See above.

Your the one who didnt know the difference between conversion and modification so what am I supposed to think with your "whole life" experience leaving you unable to discern the difference bewteen the two.

  Yea, I think I could muddle my way through. You missed the point, or more like it,selectivly passed over it .

Yet I don't see absolute power in our government. I see checks and balances and courts

  Yep, that has to be monitored and regulated "by the people" that get involved and are not intimidated to do so. If that ever stops you won`t have a say in the matter. that`s the point.

The answer is not a gun, it lays in debate and discussion.

  Hard to debate or discuss anything in a firefight. all the noise , blood and stuff sort of puts a damper on it.

We have larger problems right now than stupid guns. I am sorry you don't understand that.

  There are no larger problems than rights and the operation of our country. I am sorry that you can`t see that. Maybe take off the rose colored glasses. Might clear your vision up.

They fought so I could voice my opinion no matter what it is.

  I believe that`s exactly the point I made. What they didn`t fight for was to have all the effort and sacrifice thrown down the tubes.

So basically you are an NRA member and that is your way of "monitoring and regulating the government". That is weak. Wow you do a good job of keeping the government in line. Don't chide others on their not keeping tabs (on the gov't) when all you do is subscribe to a magazine/website.

  We can start with the NRA comment here. If you actualy think that a magazine/website is all there is to the organization you are very, very misinformed. NRA is the voice, a very large voice, of it`s members. When they speak on an issue, you can bet your sweet bippy that politicians listen.
  If it has an effect on votes, they listen.
Let`s get real.....A politician will change horses in mid- stream, ride that horse standing on his head sing Get Along Home Cindy if it will get votes.
  There is alot more one can do too. Starting at local , state levels all the way up the line. The trick is to make your voice heard by groups. Something that will effect votes. That`s pretty simple. you should be able to grasp it without blowing a circuit.

11)I speak my mind plenty on the government and have been involved with more government agents/officials than I am sure you have ever seen. I have no problems expressing how I feel about both with the experience from having dealt with lots of them. I am opinionated as hell and how you could say I am afraid to speak my mind just shows me you have already pre-judged anything I have to say.

  I seriously doubt the above statements. Sticking your head in a barrel and yelling just to hear the echo of your own voice doesn`t do much.

Automatic weapons are illegal for the general populace, there is a waiting peroid, Felons cannot own guns.

  Automatic weapons are not illegal with a permit.
  Waiting periods have no effect on anyone besides the law abiding.
  Felons can and do own guns.
They are the only ones that gun laws do not effect.

Does "Mandatory Evacuation" mean anything to you?

  Not much when it comes after the fact.

15) Like I said you just gonna arrest their jesus and then go knock on the door? I would hate to be on a swat team with you in charge. You would lead to a lot more casulties than there would have been

  And like I said...  David could have been taken down at the lumber yard on any given week. The rest would have been simple. There would have been no casualties as there would have been no gunfire.

 

. You are not my dad and act nothing like him. He is retired customs service of 24 years

Do tell! I think that clears a lot up then. lmao
  Yep, I`m not your dad. Something we can agree on and both be thankfull for.

[lazs2]

and finaly.... If the ATF is indeed the protector of all us poor citizens that may be at the mercy of a madman like Koresh and the children and the occassional middle aged class three dealer who has 3 legal regestered machine guns but may allso have an auto sear that he MAY use to convert another gun or poke someones eye out with on the subway or something..

Why do they need to go undercover for such opps?   the local police had been to Korreshs church many times.... there had been firearms inspections before.... the middle aged gun dealers they hound are not some organized gang... afraid the wife might go after em for ruining their lives?

Perhaps all your arguemnts about the safety of the rest of us and the need to ninja out on a raid would make more sense if...

The ATF made raids on gang members in the middle of the ghetto?

or, perhaps you, like they... feel that either gang members (some million strong) are not really breaking any laws or are any kind of threat to the rest of us and that the ATF should concentrate it's resources toward the much more dangerous middle aged gun collector.

Even tho.... no class 3 dealer (the ones they raid in the middle of the night in full ninja gear) even tho none of these people has ever used a gun in a crime...  

I could maybe see the 30 to 1 masked ninja mentality making a little sense if they were going after gang members in the middle of the ghetto.   Not against law abiding citizens.   Not against citizens who had opended their homes willingly to police in the past..

Nothing you can say justifies what they (ninjas) did or do in this light....

And... ATF admitted that the whole davidian raid was set up to garner pubicity (favorable ironicaly enough) for themselves and funding.   They called the press and they created the mess.   They caused the death of those people and their own people.    No one needed to die.

as I said... neighbors and local police met with and shared the hospitality of the Davidians on numerous occassions.  they had never threatened anyone.   locals used the davidian range to shoot.   The local sherrif said that the davidians were all "good people" and not at all violent.  

least not till a group of ninjas in the wee hours of the morning stormed their home and fired thousands of rounds into it.

lazs