Author Topic: good book... (Read 4340 times)

Raider179 · « **Reply #105 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:07:37 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
No. Most of them are strawmen.

Why don't YOU explain this little lapse on the part of BATF?

If there were all those illegal items out there, why didn't the ATF accept the invitiation to come inspect?

linky?

Perhaps Koresh hadn't obtained the weapons/explosives at that time? But without a link I am just guessing.

Iceman24 · « **Reply #106 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:37:20 PM »

everybody replying about Waco and David Koresh really need to do some research on them, if they did they would find out that it is the biggest police screwup in a long time. They drummed up all this crap about Koresh molesting kids because that was the only thing they could use to against him. He can stockpile all the weapons he wants to, thats not why the ATF was really there supposedly, they were there because Koresh was molesting children and holding ppl against there will which we all know now is tottally false. The ATF drummed up all this crap so THEY could raid him and start a bunch of crap, what insued was exactly what the ATF wanted to happen a gun battle insued. Unfortunaltey there intel was way wrong and Davidians kicked there butts with shotguns and deer rifles, contray to what the ATF says, they only had a few automatic weapons. Lets get down to it tho, what did those people do wrong. If someone wants to build a compound and hole up in it I have no problem with that, and if other families want to join them then they should be able to. What I don't like is how the ATF raided them for no good reason other than they wanted some good publicity, and if you really look at what happend it was the ATF that set the fires with there tear gas, and were also responsible for keeping them inside the compound while it was on fire. In the movie "Rules of Engagement" they show excellent night vision shots of ATF officers firing auto weapons at the exits of the compound after the fires started. Also 2 days before the fires the ATF guy that was talkin gto Koresh asked him if they had fire extenguishers, to me it doesn't look like a raid so much as a hit, after all, all the people in the compound were now witnesses, can't have any of those

Iceman24 · « **Reply #107 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:39:15 PM »

I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.

Kinda hard to leave when theres an ATF guy standing at the exit firing a sub machine gun at ya

Raider179 · « **Reply #108 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:43:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Iceman24
everybody replying about Waco and David Koresh really need to do some research on them, if they did they would find out that it is the biggest police screwup in a long time. They drummed up all this crap about Koresh molesting kids because that was the only thing they could use to against him. He can stockpile all the weapons he wants to, thats not why the ATF was really there supposedly, they were there because Koresh was molesting children and holding ppl against there will which we all know now is tottally false. The ATF drummed up all this crap so THEY could raid him and start a bunch of crap, what insued was exactly what the ATF wanted to happen a gun battle insued. Unfortunaltey there intel was way wrong and Davidians kicked there butts with shotguns and deer rifles, contray to what the ATF says, they only had a few automatic weapons. Lets get down to it tho, what did those people do wrong. If someone wants to build a compound and hole up in it I have no problem with that, and if other families want to join them then they should be able to. What I don't like is how the ATF raided them for no good reason other than they wanted some good publicity, and if you really look at what happend it was the ATF that set the fires with there tear gas, and were also responsible for keeping them inside the compound while it was on fire. In the movie "Rules of Engagement" they show excellent night vision shots of ATF officers firing auto weapons at the exits of the compound after the fires started. Also 2 days before the fires the ATF guy that was talkin gto Koresh asked him if they had fire extenguishers, to me it doesn't look like a raid so much as a hit, after all, all the people in the compound were now witnesses, can't have any of those

Did you even read the warrant? They were after illegally converted weapons and explosives.

Read the other link I posted on the expert testimony regarding the "machine gunning of the exits". The experts Disagree. What you have in WROE is 1 expert who sees it in the way they want it portrayed.

There were Survivors so sorry it wasn't a "hit"

Raider179 · « **Reply #109 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:44:06 PM »

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Originally posted by Iceman24
I will admit the FBI did lie and cover up some things but I still hold the Branch Davidians responsible for the outcome of that day. They could have walked out anytime and got their "day in court" but choose not too. Wrong choice.

Kinda hard to leave when theres an ATF guy standing at the exit firing a sub machine gun at ya

Thank god someone here holds the BD's to some personal responsibility.

Yeah maybe they should have come out earlier instead of waiting on Koresh to finish translating the seals.

Toad · « **Reply #110 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:45:24 PM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
linky?

Perhaps Koresh hadn't obtained the weapons/explosives at that time? But without a link I am just guessing.

Hardly.

Check out Treasure Department Report 186-188.

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c. Koresh Invited BATF to Inspect Weapons in 1992

The Treasury report alleges: "During the compliance inspection of Henry McMahon. . .Special Agent Aguilera deliberately led McMahon to believe that the inspection was a routine administrative inquiry." (TDR:186-188) However, it fails to mention McMahon's version of the visit. Because Aguilera and another BATF agent were asking Henry McMahon a lot of questions about Koresh, he immediately called Koresh to inform him. According to McMahon, "He said, `If there's a problem, tell them to come out here. If they want to see my guns, they're more than welcome.' So I walked back in the room, holding the cordless phone and said, `I've got (Koresh) on the phone. If you'd like to go out there and see those guns, you're more than welcome to.' They looked at each other and Aguilera got real paranoid, shaking his head and whispering, `No, no!' And so I went back to the phone and told David they wouldn't be coming out." [95]

After Koresh's attorney Dick DeGuerin mentioned the incident during a media panel in September, 1993, reporters from two Houston papers contacted Jack Killorin, Chief of BATF's Public Affairs. He told one reporter he was not surprised that a federal agent rejected an offer to inspect weapons. "The preferred method by the law is going with the standard of getting a warrant before entering a home. We execute such warrants." [96] He told the other reporter, "Koresh's learning of the investigation in July 1992 had no effect on the raid or the resulting standoff between agents and cult members." [97]

Footnotes in quote:

95. James L. Pate, "Waco: Behind the Cover-Up," Soldier of Fortune, November, 1993, pgs. 36-41, 71-72.

96. Marc Smith, "Agent allegedly refused Koresh's offer," Houston Chronicle, September 11, 1993.

97. Associated Press, "Gun Dealer Alerted Koresh to ATF Probe, Lawyer Says," Houston Post, September 11, 1993

You're deluding yourself. The BATF royall screwed up. But defend them all you like.

While you're at it, defend the killing of Randy Weaver's wife too. You won't look any worse for that than you do now.

Raider179 · « **Reply #111 on:** September 12, 2005, 01:55:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad

You're deluding yourself. The BATF royall screwed up. But defend them all you like.

While you're at it, defend the killing of Randy Weaver's wife too. You won't look any worse for that than you do now.

That is interesting. Maybe they were already planning the raid at that point and were trying to not tip their hand.

No one is saying There weren't mistakes made but I do not place the majority of the blame on the ATF. To me it lies solely in the people who fired on ATF agents executing a LEGAL warrant.

Personal responsibility. Then holing up for 2 months when they could have walked out at anytime and had "their day in court".

Sorry I do not have any respect for people who do not obey/respect the law and resist it with violence. You defend the BD's and your telling me I look bad. LOL

If you think about how many no-knock warrants are executed each year that end in no bloodshed how you can take 1 incident and make it out to be total distrust of Feds is beyond me. I have no problem with the FEDs using force to quell insurrections such as that.

Any of you gonna answer my 7 questions?

Iceman24 · « **Reply #112 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:00:11 PM »

my whole point here is that if I wanted to build a compound and put a bunch of guns in it then I should be able to without the ATF flying choppers over my place and firing M60's at me, after all it is my constitutional right to bear arms and form a militia. I'm athiest so I believe the 1st Jesus has just as much credibility as he does lol, they're both the same, phonies, and thats what got the ATF pissed off, he said he was Jesus. So I guess as long as I don't claim to be Jesus then it is ok to hole up in a compound somewhere. If I remember correctly our president says he talks to god everyday before he makes decisions. Its not him talkin to god that has me worried its that god is talkin back, of coarse that could just be cheney in his ear lol I just thinks its funny as a society how we choose who to believe in and who not to, for instance George Bush talks to god then he's a good leader, if David Koresh talks to god then he is crazy. All I can say is that if Koresh was right and he was Jesus then some people are gonna be in trouble. Look what we supposedly did with the 1st Jesus, killed him lol. So far you religous nuts out there aren't doing too well with gods lol Anybody that claims to be Jesus has been killed on the spot no questions asked lol. 1 last thought, if they really wanted to bring David Koresh out and put him in jail, why didn't they just put big fence with razor wire around the compund and say ok now your in jail, it was that simple, case closed everybody go home. But no the ATF wanted to show off, and they were pissed off because they just got the crap beat outta them so they were lookin for revenge. This didn't happen because of David Koresh, this happened because a bunch of a bunch of people in Waco started griping about this guy that was runnin around sayin he was Jesus, nothing more, all the sex crimes were drummed up by the FBI and ATF not 1 was true. To me this is the biggest screwup of any government agency of all time, and the fact that 1/2 the ATF officers that were there state they were out of line, and the other 1/2 say they wern't just shows the rift that is in that ageny

Iceman24 · « **Reply #113 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:06:34 PM »

If you saw the FLIR as did congress... you know that one thing is sure... Every single thing that the ATF and even the FBI said was a lie. They never once told the truth ever.... every tape or log or bit of evidence that was made and would prove them to be truthful or liars that was in their hands was somehow missing.... every indipendent piece of evidence contradicted everything they said. FBI "we did not fire one shot at the Davidians" cut to Flir images of FBI or delta teams under the FBI machine gunning the building while it was on fire and people were trying to escape... they machine gunned the only exit.

very well said

Iceman24 · « **Reply #114 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:22:41 PM »

maybe and maybe the ATF shouldn't have lit them on fire and then blocked the exits with machine gun toting officers lol. My whole point to this is that the ATF goofed this all up and it could have been have been handled peacefully at numerous different times, the ATF wanted to get on tv, thats it plain and simple and they were going to no matter what. If the ATF wanted to end it peacefully why did choppers fly over the BD compound before the ATF raided and opened fire with M60's, thats the whole argument who shot 1st. Theres allot of info coming out now that says the ATF choppers opened up with M60's. I'm a law abiding citizen but I don't care who you are, if you come to my house and start shooting at me, I will return fire whether I'm in the right or wrong I will try and save my life. I personally don't like the guy and think the world is probably better off without him and his BD's but what I can't get outta my head is how the ATF screwed it all up and is lying about everything that happened. They new what was going to happen, they wanted it to go down just like it did, or they would have grabbed him at the lumbar yard

I just don't see how we can construe in this day and age anything that David Koresh did as illegal, was he a nut job, sure. was he FOS, sure. was he doing anything illegal, no not really.

lazs2 · « **Reply #115 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:30:49 PM »

raider... your lack of understanding about firearms continues to amaze me. You claim to be a firearms expert... Have you ever even owned a firearm? What was it and what happened to it? You must at least realize the there is no possible way to tell if a bullet came from a semi auto, bolt action or converted gun right? well.... you do now.

first of all... watch the documentaries... everyone agrees that the ATF fired first.... then... they emptied their guns into the church through the windows and doors when they got shot back at... they literaly ran out of ammo and surrendered to the davidians... they gave up... the dividians allowed them to take their dead and wounded and retreat... they could have killed every single unarmed (no ammo) ninja but they didn't.

The warrrant... well... actually the warant is 2/3 about child abuse.... nothing to do with ATF.... the rest.... is ... well...about nothing since they have the wrong number for the offense on the warrant.

The ATF called the press to watch em make a big bust... they chased off the press when they got their butts kicked and.... they "lost" five tapes from five different cameras that would easily show who fired first.

As for how I believe.... I believe as the courts found.... that the davidians were innocent of murder... that they had a right, a duty, to shoot back at unidentified ninjas shooting up their home. Not one Davidian was charged with murder or shooting at federal officers.

To this day... the congressional investigators request for the "machine guns" for their experts to examine has not been honored... no proof of any machine gun has been shown by federal authorities. They have refused any attempt to examine the weapons in question.

but... say korresh had a converted semi auto or two... And... since he didn't pay the $200 each to regester em....

Just how many children do you think should be killed for each $200 uncollected tax raider? Is 4 or 5 a good number? maybe 20? how bout suspicion of a machine gun? that should be good for at least a couple of children mowed down by ATF "legal" (and very real) machine guns.

The crying ATF agent who was pleading with congress in the documentary to understand that his men were outgunned....that they only had 9 mm pistols against "223" assault weapons.... and then the video of his men pouring full auto fire into the walls and windows of the building with full auto M16's (machine guns) and Mp5's (sub machine guns) is sickening.

But... I would settle for... every single person caught in a lie in that hearing....I would settle for them being fired on the spot.

Watch the documentaries and see if you don't agree.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #116 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:32:53 PM »

at one point in the negotiations the negotiator admits that helicopters were firing into the building...

worse.... in one place in the negotiations.... the negotiator tells the davidians that if they try to come out and surrender they will be killed.. that might explain some of the reluctance.

Iceman24 · « **Reply #117 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:38:46 PM »

I guess what pisses me off so much about this is the same thing most of us or mad at our government, there is no accountability for anything done ever, and its not just in the white house. Our government as a whole has this real bad " I don't know " complex, its getting rediculous. Who screwed this up, " I don't know" is the only answer I keep hearing. Maybe its time that this country makes some changes, and #1 is that if our government or an agency in our government gets asked a question, how about changing the rules so they have to answer. I like Bush's reply as to why he wouldn't talk to the 9/11 committy, " Talk to them, sure I'll visit with them, off the record" " Mr. President why won't you answer any questions on the record" " Because we can't let terrorists learn how we collect information" I mean come on, this is the biggest pile of crap ever, hell even clinton answered to the comittee about him getting a BJ from Monica Lewinsky. Just sitting here at work thinking of all the different ways I could get fired, now if I was a politician or in a government agency like the ATF or FBI, I really think it would be impossible to get fired, I mean how bad do you have to srewup to get fired. Its like we went around the country and took all the F ups and put them in charge, not just Bush, but every agency. Look at whats goin on in NO right now, no accountability, nobody's fault. Hell at least Fema actually fired someone, that has to be the 1st person fired from a government job in 4 years

lazs2 · « **Reply #118 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:40:20 PM »

but.... back to the book... I was unable to find any passage in the book that anyone could say that the author was advocating or glorifying any kind of racism.

Perhaps one of you liberal types could show me.... I admit that I have a really hard time recognizing what a lot of you consider "racism" these days.

lazs

Toad · « **Reply #119 on:** September 12, 2005, 02:43:27 PM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
That is interesting. Maybe they were already planning the raid at that point and were trying to not tip their hand.

[/b]

ROFLMAO! What need is there for a raid when you have been invited in to inspect?

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No one is saying There weren't mistakes made but I do not place the majority of the blame on the ATF. To me it lies solely in the people who fired on ATF agents executing a LEGAL warrant.

[/b]

Really? Well, what if the ATF has turned down an invitation to inspect the whole operation and chooses to attack with ATF agents firing first? It hasn't been proven that the BD's fired first you know.

From PBS:

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Who fired first on that day, the Branch Davidians or the ATF?

The question of who fired first is in dispute. ATF agents who participated in the raid have testified in court and at a congressional hearing that the Branch Davidians fired the first shots. Right after the raid, however, one ATF agent told an investigator that a fellow agent may have shot first, when he killed a dog outside the compound. The agent later retracted the statement, saying that the Branch Davidians had initiated the gunfire. Surviving Branch Davidians have maintained that they did not shoot their guns until they were fired upon by federal authorities.

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Sorry I do not have any respect for people who do not obey/respect the law and resist it with violence. You defend the BD's and your telling me I look bad. LOL

[/b]

You look bad because you are defending an ATF operation that spun out of control and needlessly killed 80 people. In fact, you look REALLY bad.

The BD's were surrounded. What immediate threat to their neighbors, their state or their nation did they represent? Why the need to take them out using force? They would have given up sooner or later.

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If you think about how many no-knock warrants are executed each year that end in no bloodshed how you can take 1 incident

[/b]

You've been shown it isn't "one incident". BATF and IRS are two governmental agencies that routinely trample the Constitution.