Author Topic: RAF 150 octane  (Read 11420 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2005, 04:42:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Scherf
I think you may be wrong there.


Operation 'Crossbow' - The code name given to operations designed to counter the threat from German secret weapons, the V-1 and V-2. These included both offensive measures before and during the attacks as well as defensive measures once the attacks had begun.

Diver operations and Operation Diver are not the same.

Offline Scherf

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« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2005, 05:04:45 PM »
As I understand it, Crossbow went against the launching sites with bombs, Diver went against the V-1s in the air.

Makes sense, as two separate organisations were used - 2nd TAF vs the sites and ADGB vs the missiles.

Noball sorties vs. anti-diver sorties, IIRC.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2005, 05:49:00 PM »
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Crumpp, can we at least get the operation names correct.


Operation Diver:

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IV. Operation Diver. Covers the history of the operations to combat the flying bombs, lists of sites, site layouts and locations.


http://www.ukfortsclub.org.uk/aldis/69/69_3.html

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The archives project is likely to run for 3 years and in the first year 5 reports have been completed which vary considerably in size (some run to several volumes of text, sources, and gazetteers). Subjects completed to date are anti-aircraft artillery 191446, bombing decoys of WWII, Operations Diver, Overlord, and Anti-invasion.


http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/ArchRev/rev95_6/c20thdef.htm

 
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"Operation Crossbow" was the code name for a top-secret WWII mission to build and destroy a copy of a German V1 missile launch site. Working around the clock for 13 days in 1944, contractors built the full-sized facility on a remote part of the Eglin reservation. Today, portions of nine concrete and brick structures scattered over a 14-acre area are what remains of the complex. Several of the buildings remain virtually intact and show little damage from the many attempts over the years to destroy them. They offer mute testimony to one of WWII's great events.


http://www.eglin.af.mil/em/virtualtours/crossbow/

The Operations are commonly confused as ones cover was the other.

The V1 Operation Crossbow built and the United States produced is on display at Wright Patterson:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap15.htm

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Squire says:

And the quoted NACA document, which apparently the "guy" at the USAF museum cant find (or anything else on the subject, apparently):


The NACA document from 1949 does not say what you are wishing it did say.

About 100/150 grade it says:



The fuel caused serious problems which robbed power on long range escort missions.

It was used extensively in Operation Diver.  It was prematurely adopted and found unsuitable for long range escort.

Operation Diver was a huge operation.  I have posted the specifics earlier.

Your confusing the reports comments about 93/110 with 100/150 grade:



In fact the report says that high aromatic content is useful for overcoming the problems found in high octane fuels.  The fuel cannot contain any amines.

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1949/naca-rm-9d13/index.cgi?page0002.gif

From an allied analysis of the composition of C3:



Which is probably why in that same report the allies are wonder why C3 contained a higher concetration of aromatics.

I tend to think the NACA report 9D13 would not exist if 100/150 grade was useable.
 

So some guy on the internet says the "Special Projects" Tag has nothing to do with fuel?  

Again, I will go with what The USAF Museum says on the 100/150 grade fuel use by the 8th USAAF.

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Let's summarize: We've got multiple original documents, as well as many squadron accounts showing widespread use of 100/150 grade vs. your tortured interpretations of selected quotes. I think I'll stick with the documents, if you don't mind.


Yes let's summerize!

None of your documents dealing with the USAAF are from the command.  They are all from the Deputy Director of Supply.

The fuel is listed in a post war NACA report concerning the exact problems encountered by the USAAF and RAF under cruising conditions.

The USAAF says the aircraft did not use the fuel in T.O.:

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T.O. 02-1-38 Specified and Alternate Grade Fuel for Aircraft-Engine Combinations (2 Oct 1944, rev. 10 Feb 1945, rev. 20 May 1945)


100/150 grade should be an alternate, right?

The August 1945 P51 POH does not list 100/150 grade use either.  You would think if it was so successful it would have been adopted?  Especially when you consider that a few weeks before, the invasion of Japan was under consideration.



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Well, since I was never permanent party at Benning


Neither was I.  My first duty station was HAAF.

If you think your logistic documents are valid proof, remember being in the supply room and looking at all the crap that was never used!

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Neil Stirling1

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« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2005, 06:32:19 PM »
Accurate records available here POWE33/1363



Neil

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2005, 06:36:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Neither was I.  My first duty station was HAAF.

If you think your logistic documents are valid proof, remember being in the supply room and looking at all the crap that was never used!

All the best,

Crumpp [/B]


Crumpp,

There is simply no way that VIII FC was receiving 20,000 tons of 100/150 grade fuel per month just store it.  No Way.  20,000 tons was more than enough for for every one of VIII FC's 45 squadrons.

100/150 grade was a British fuel, so it's not suprising that the majority of documentation describing its use and implementation resides in the UK and not Wright Pat.  It was a grade of fuel refined and supplied by an ally, and used by only one command of one of the numbered Air Forces- evidence for its use is not going to be that widespread outside of that context.  Neil Stirling has done a fabulous job of unearthing a large number of these documents.  Those numerous documents coupled with the numerous references, including Freeman's, to its use in squadron service leaves no doubt that it was the exclusive fuel used by the command from the Summer of '44 'til at least Spring of '45.


Were you with 1st Batt at Hunter?


.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #215 on: September 29, 2005, 06:39:56 PM »
Supply is not the question.

How many times does that have to be said??

That is just like claiming the large number of Me262 airframes from 1945 were flying.

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100/150 grade was a British fuel, so it's not suprising that the majority of documentation describing its use and implementation resides in the UK and not Wright Pat.


True, but the P51 was a USAAF piece of equipment.  When was the last time a foreign country wrote the instructions for US equipment?

They did not and never will.

I was in B co, 2nd Plt.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 29, 2005, 06:48:04 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Neil Stirling1

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« Reply #216 on: September 29, 2005, 06:47:57 PM »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #217 on: September 29, 2005, 06:55:46 PM »
So they borrowed 100/130 grade form the British in September of 1945.  It's proof they were at least using it by then.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #218 on: September 29, 2005, 08:19:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Supply is not the question.

How many times does that have to be said??


I guess as many times as it takes for you to realize that there is just no way that VIII Fighter Command was going to stock, every month, its entire monthly requirement for fuel in a fuel that it doesn't use!  If they were not using 100/150 grade, then that means they were receiving a parallel supply of 20,000 tons of 100/130 grade at the same time- it simply defies comprehension!

I'll ask again- where did that 20,000 tons per month go?  It had to go somewhere if it wasn't being consumed.

Let me ask you this, can you envision any scenario where a platoon of Bradley's would receive, month after month, a supply of MoGas large enough to supply every last drop of the platoon's monthly fuel usage, despite the fact that the platoon uses only Deisel fuel?  That is what you're asking us to believe.

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True, but the P51 was a USAAF piece of equipment.  When was the last time a foreign country wrote the instructions for US equipment?

They did not and never will.

I was in B co, 2nd Plt.

All the best,

Crumpp


They didn't, Eighth Air Force did:

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A US Air Corps. memorandum from the Chief, Petroleum Section to the Chief, Supply Divison, US Army dated 11 July, 1944, Subject: Grade 150 Aviation Fuel, stipulated the following:

            The following limiting War Emergency Rating Manifold Pressures have been established by the Eighth Air Force for the different aircraft:

    Aircraft   Old W.E.R.   New W.E.R.
    P-38J   60"   66"
    P-47D without water   52"   62"
    P-47D with water   57"   67"
    P-51B   67"   72"

             It is thought that the above manifold pressures may even be increased to some extent using 150 Grade fuel, and roughly speaking the increase in speed of fighter aircraft at altitudes below 20,000 ft. is approximately 25 miles per hour. The increase in the rate of climb is approximately 800 ft. per minute. In addition, manifold pressures can be used at the higher ratings without danger of incipient detonation; this gives a greater factor of safety.



The RAF ran its Mustangs at 81" Hg WEP on 100/150 grade.


Sua Sponte.

.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #219 on: September 29, 2005, 08:32:39 PM »
Story has it the Iwo Jima based Mustangs ran at 81" wep on 100/145 fuel

Gotta remember where I found that.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #220 on: September 29, 2005, 09:49:59 PM »
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A US Air Corps. memorandum from the Chief, Petroleum Section to the Chief, Supply Divison, US Army dated 11 July, 1944, Subject: Grade 150 Aviation Fuel, stipulated the following:


It is a memo from supply, bro.   It's not orders from the command.

Did you ever go on any missions that you did not state your requirements to supply?  Supply pushed those requirements up the chain if they could not fullfill them, right?

Did you always get what you asked for?

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I'll ask again- where did that 20,000 tons per month go?


Your confusing requirements with use.  Nothing on that memo says 20,000 tons per month is being used.  It says it is required.

That document I posted earlier on the BMW801TH showed the required number of engines per month.  Not the number produced.  It is from a meeting with BMW and their subcontractors to determine how many engines they needed to produce to meet the requirements for operations and a reserve of engines.

However it could easily be misunderstood as production.  It's an easy mistake to make especially if you take one document as the whole picture.

Several factors make me highly skeptical.

First is the USAF Museum.  Those guys get paid to research the History for a living.  They have much better access to documents, veterans, and aircraft.   If they say it was unlikely that 100/150 grade saw widescale use, I believe them.

Second is the fuel technology of 1944-45.  They simply did not have the knowledge to produce ultra-high octane fuels that could be run in the entire power band.  The NACA conducted multiple investigations before they determined the right combination to make high octane fuels work without damaging engines over the entire power band after the war.  9D13 was conducted in 1949!

Third, the mission profile of the 8th AF does not fit the optimum operating specifications of 100/150 grade fuel as determined by the RAF.  

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Sua Sponte.


Hooah......

 :p

What unit were you with?

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 29, 2005, 10:10:19 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #221 on: September 30, 2005, 01:04:51 AM »


I think this covers all arguments...

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #222 on: September 30, 2005, 05:07:44 AM »
That is exactly what I have been quoting Widewing.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #223 on: September 30, 2005, 06:15:21 AM »
The thing I wonder about is how that while Neil found all these beutiful docs about production and storage, how come he didn`t find or post any about consumption? Ie. the 1945 one with 2nd TAF, USAAF units.

How come that if his claims are true, there isn`t an awaful amount of papers regarding consumptions at all?

Possibly :

a, Such papers don`t exists
b, Neil had not found them
c, Neil found them but they contain something that`d like to filter, since then it`s so much easier to make vogue, optimistic guesses of all sort.

Given my experience with Neil, I`d go with c,. It is really hard to imagine consumption docs are no-where to be found when the production docs and and those recent snippets of the 2nd TAF are there. I guess it goes the same way as his previous claims about 150 grade use : "All of ADGB used it". Now it seems it was really half a dozen diver squads until the V-1 raids lasted.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #224 on: September 30, 2005, 06:20:00 AM »
So I guess you are implying that the goods were produced, stockpiled and after a while used for cooking sausage?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)