Author Topic: RAF 150 octane  (Read 11422 times)

Offline Kurfürst

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #225 on: September 30, 2005, 07:32:58 AM »
No, I suggested that 150 grade was appearantly more problematic and less widespread than the 'unversal' use that Neil suggests. It took time to try to solve problems, evidently the USAAF Merlins had problems that weren't sorted out until the end of the war, so I wonder how much use it saw, really. Of course some used it, but let us remember that Neil and others told the story as like from spring 1944 virtually every figther unit made used of the increased performance, but the more and more we see of the documentation the more this view becomes wishful thinking and more grey rather than black and white. It would be really nice to know the real extent of the use, but I fear there is no willingness on the behalf of Neil to show the real facts, rather than the all-positive, filtered ones.
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Offline Neil Stirling1

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #226 on: September 30, 2005, 08:19:48 AM »
British history.

Originally 150 grade was to be used by A.E.A.F fighter aircraft that were to support Overlord. However this was cancelled some time in March 44 due to Spark plug problems.

However the V 1 appeard mid June 44 and those A.D.G.B sqns that were delegated the task of intercepting it were put on 150 grade.

Come 22nd September 150 grade use was suspended for these reasons.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirling...eptember+44.jpg

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirling...September+1.jpg

And the results of its use summarised here.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/Summary.jpg

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/Summary+2.jpg

Later in October 1944 it was decided to put the 2nd TAF on 150 grade, this starting 15-12-44.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/date.jpg


Indeed some aircraft did come from the factory ready to use 150 grade and +25lbs boost.


http://hometown.aol.co.uk/JStirlingBomber/MK+XVI.jpg


The fuel was not standard during 1944 and the extent of its RAF use unkown to me outside of 1944 A.D.G.B and 1945 2nd TAF.

Neil.

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #227 on: September 30, 2005, 08:32:26 AM »
Yeah we heard(read) this already.

Then tell us please the extent of use in 1945 2nd TAF.
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Offline Kev367th

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #228 on: September 30, 2005, 08:34:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
The thing I wonder about is how that while Neil found all these beutiful docs about production and storage, how come he didn`t find or post any about consumption? Ie. the 1945 one with 2nd TAF, USAAF units.

How come that if his claims are true, there isn`t an awaful amount of papers regarding consumptions at all?

Possibly :

a, Such papers don`t exists
b, Neil had not found them
c, Neil found them but they contain something that`d like to filter, since then it`s so much easier to make vogue, optimistic guesses of all sort.

Given my experience with Neil, I`d go with c,. It is really hard to imagine consumption docs are no-where to be found when the production docs and and those recent snippets of the 2nd TAF are there. I guess it goes the same way as his previous claims about 150 grade use : "All of ADGB used it". Now it seems it was really half a dozen diver squads until the V-1 raids lasted.


LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Sounds just like someones pet theory on 1.98ata doesn't it.
You frickin HYPOCRITE.
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #229 on: September 30, 2005, 08:52:46 AM »
I find a pattern in that the matter of 1.98ata is always raised when unpleasent questions are directed about the extent of use of 150 grade fuel and high boost.

Why not just answer the question?
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Offline Kev367th

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #230 on: September 30, 2005, 09:28:48 AM »
Why don't you answer any -

People have shown (documented)-
Delivery 150 grade
Use 150 grade

You on the other hand -
Have failed to show 1 drop of C3 got to any of your K4 units.
That even 1 K4 was converted for 1.98ata.

Yet we are supposed to accept your theory as being true, and ours that 150 grade was used is not.

Even a good politician couldn't worm his way out of that BS.
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Offline Scherf

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #231 on: September 30, 2005, 09:33:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
unpleasent questions are directed about the extent of use of 150 grade fuel and high boost.


Such as: "Damn, why did they produce so damn much if they didn't use it?" "Where did they put it all?" and "Why didn't they have much left at the end of the war?"
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Kurfürst

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #232 on: September 30, 2005, 09:42:25 AM »
They didnt produce that much, Neil is manipulating by using British fuel production of 150 vs. 130 grade, but of course the British themselves got most the 130 grade from the US, so hardly they needed to produce it themselves.

Funny still, if it was that much used, why 2nd TAF logbooks are not mentioning the use of such boost... why the lack of evidence of use. It should be everywhere.
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Offline Scherf

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #233 on: September 30, 2005, 09:46:24 AM »
You're saying they didn't produce as much as Neil claims?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Kurfürst

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #234 on: September 30, 2005, 09:58:52 AM »
I am saying Neil is posting meaningless comparasions of Brtiish 150 and 130 grade production, as the vast majority of 130 grade fuel was imported into the UK from the USA.

After all, its pretty silly to believe that huge bombers would do with that 130grade produced in Britian, being 40%-50% of their fuel production, when the rest 50% wasn`t enough for much fighters which had 1/10th the fuel capacity.

Besides, the only 'evidence' he posted on 150 grade production are his own home-made tables.
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Offline Widewing

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #235 on: September 30, 2005, 10:05:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
No, I suggested that 150 grade was appearantly more problematic and less widespread than the 'unversal' use that Neil suggests. It took time to try to solve problems, evidently the USAAF Merlins had problems that weren't sorted out until the end of the war, so I wonder how much use it saw, really. Of course some used it, but let us remember that Neil and others told the story as like from spring 1944 virtually every figther unit made used of the increased performance, but the more and more we see of the documentation the more this view becomes wishful thinking and more grey rather than black and white. It would be really nice to know the real extent of the use, but I fear there is no willingness on the behalf of Neil to show the real facts, rather than the all-positive, filtered ones.


100/150 was used by all 8th AF fighter groups, and it was used up until VE day. After VE day, all units went back to 100/130 as there was sufficient volumes of that fuel to meet the reduced flying requirements. Some units requested stocks of 100/130 when engine maintenance was severely affected by the newly introduced "PEP" additive (March '45), but this did not occur until late March/early April and the lower octane rated fuel was not generally available to the 8th FC.

Looking at the 56th FG, I cannot find any references of valve seat damage to the R-2800 from the use of 100/150 with PEP. It may be that this engine was not as susceptible to this problem or that there was insufficient data from its limited use (over 3 months) and limited P-47M sorties. I do know that the R-2800 C-series was dyno tested at 80" MAP for 250 hours using 100/130 and suffered no mechanical failures. So, I'd be inclined to think that the P-47M would have benefited as much from rigging for over-boost as it would have from 100/150. It appears that the PEP additive was coming out of solution (separating) in the intake manifold of the Merlin. This is a problem similar to that experienced by the Allisons used in P-38Js in early 1944. A special fuel formulation was ordered by Doolittle specifically for P-38 units that solved this problem (which was further addressed by a design change to the manifolds). Solution breakdown did not occur in the R-2800 engine, which could run with good efficency and reliability on just about any fuel available.

By the way, usage can be clearly defined by month to month deliveries. When I get a delivery of home heating oil, I get a receipt that not only defines what was delivered, but what was replaced due to consumption.

So, any argument that there is no record of fuel consumption would be imbecilic, and to argue that there was no usage of massive stores of 100/150 stretches credibility to the breaking point. Indeed, Freeman states that 100/130 was not generally available to the 8th Fighter Command; "as the old grade had been largely replaced by 100/150, supply was difficult."

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Scherf

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #236 on: September 30, 2005, 10:25:57 AM »
55.7% is a comparison.

369,000-odd tons is a volume. Are you saying this volume was not produced?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 11:07:05 AM by Scherf »
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Angus

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« Reply #237 on: September 30, 2005, 10:31:24 AM »
Am I right in the sence that the RAF was a bit earlier into introducing the highest rate fuel than the USAAF then?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline LRRP22

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RAF 150 octane
« Reply #238 on: September 30, 2005, 01:07:28 PM »

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #239 on: September 30, 2005, 01:09:40 PM »
You are.  No's 1 and 165 sqn converted theri Spitfire LF IX's to 100/150 grade fuel and +25 lbs boost during the first week of May, 1944.

Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Am I right in the sence that the RAF was a bit earlier into introducing the highest rate fuel than the USAAF then?