And Now From Our What Were They Thinking Department

[Flit]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Well, I can relate to this because our national anthem starts with God of nations, so I refuse to sing it. So I'm "left out".

Why does under god have to be there anyway? If it was added in that easily I'm sure it could be removed that easily. Nitpickers? Who are the freaking nitpickers who got it put in there then?

 So you have the choice to sing it or not.
 And God does'nt have to be there as far as I'm concerned.

[Flit]

Originally posted by Fury
In 1892, 1923, 1924 and 1954 the American people demonstrated enough concern about the actual words in the Pledge to make some necessary changes.  Today there may be a tendency among many Americans to recite "by rote" with little thought for the words themselves.  Before continuing with our tour, let's examine these 31 words a little more thoroughly.

I Pledge Allegiance
I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

to the flag
to the emblem that stands for and represents

of the United States
all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

of America
yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.

and to the Republic
And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign,

for which it stands,
this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

one Nation under God,
These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

Indivisible,
and can not be separated.   (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

with Liberty
The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

and Justice
And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

for All.
And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria.   Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.
 
 Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:
*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
     Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
     That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
     And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.
 

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

As for the beginning part of what I copied:
In 1892, 1923, 1924 and 1954 the American people demonstrated enough concern about the actual words in the Pledge to make some necessary changes.
maybe they will add 2006 to that list of years?

 Good post, Thanks

[Flit]

Now let's put this in proper perspective:
 If schools required  all kids to say , maybe, "The Lords Prayer",
 Then That would be different.
 Or required all kids to kneel and bow  toward the east ,
 That would be different.
 Or go to "confession" in school,
 That would be different.
  But the Pledge is not a prayer, it's a oath of loyalty to this country. And I have no  problem with That being reinforced in public schools.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by A_Clown
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
My point is "god" is inclusive to a great many religions.
Not just one.
Had they said Jehova or Mohammad... or Budda (forSaburoS sake) or something along those lines it would be an entirely another story.
God is not religion specific and as such does not violate the constitution if we go by its original intent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree

See and thats part of the problem. People, and the courts try to twist the constitution away from its original intent whenever it suits them. They dont go by the way it was intended when it was written but by the way they want it to be intended now.
Sorry it doesnt work that way. Nor should it.

People keep mentioning a "separation of church and state"

Well sorry but thats not in the consitution..anywhere.

And it wasnt ever the intent to keep god out of government. But rather to keep the government out of god.

Meaning to no have "a" nantional church which could dictate any specific religion as being the only legal religion


If it were we woudnt see "In god we trust", "in the year of our lord" "endowed by our creator" Senate would never have been allowed to open with prayer as they have always done. If the founding fathers didnt want god in government then why did they pray openly in official meetings?
 You would never have seen chaplins of any type in the armed forces

You would never see the president sworn into office over a bible Nor would you have ever had anyone swearing "to tell the truth the whole truth so help you god" in any court.

Why were these things ever there? Because the founding fathers who wrote the constitution wanted them there. They indended for them to be there.
They never intended for god, or any refrence to god to be removed from government.

Sorry but like it or not the naysayers are so wrong here that  ifbeing right about it were a planet in our solar system. they would be in a galaxy so far away its light has yet to have reached us.

[Nash]

Is it just me?

Or does anyone else find it fascinating that a country that fought tooth and nail to break away from the theocracy of Britain, wants to become one?

What goes around, comes around. To everything, turn, turn turn. Next thing ya know, folks are gonna be walking around with feathered hair and a big-assed comb sticking out of their back pocket.

[Chairboy]

You guys are right, these changes made since 1892 must have been necessary.  With that in mind, I think it's about time to update it.

I suggest we update it to be 'under Allah'.  As you know, Allah means 'God', so it should be fine for everyone, because they can choose to make it to whichever incarnation of Allah they want.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
And to the republic, for which it stands
One nation, under Allah,
with liberty and justice for all.

[Toad]

Relax, it's just you.

The overwhelming vast majority of Americans have no intention of letting this become a theocracy.

What confuses you, possibly, is the concept that "under God" in the pledge, which is probably only recited by schoolkids in 90% of the utterances, makes the US a theocracy, anything like a theocracy or even starts us down the road to a theocracy.

You may return to your alert bunker. All is well.

[Hangtime]

amen.

[Nash]

Baby steps, Toad.

[Flit]

Originally posted by Chairboy
You guys are right, these changes made since 1892 must have been necessary.  With that in mind, I think it's about time to update it.

I suggest we update it to be 'under Allah'.  As you know, Allah means 'God', so it should be fine for everyone, because they can choose to make it to whichever incarnation of Allah they want.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
And to the republic, for which it stands
One nation, under Allah,
with liberty and justice for all.

 Feel free to say that, if your Muslim.
 Just remember your taking a oath to a Nation, not a God

[Toad]

OMG! YOUR RIGHT NASH!

We're sliding down the slippery slope! We should have stuck with the way the founders intended this nation to be!

Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia:

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.

Little did our founders realize that someday, someone would say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. If the had, they'd have surely been amazed as the following shows.

The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men.

The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."

We've got to get a handle on this!

[Nash]

If my boss forced me to make a daily oath to him, I'd resent it.

I work because I love my job.

If my girlfriend forced me to take a daily oath to her, I'd resent it. I hang out with her because I love to.

If my country forced me to say good things about it, I would have considerably less good things to say about it.

I just cannot understand this fixation with an "oath."

"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

Screw that. I learn how to navigate and tie knots. In so doing, I appreciate what I am afforded. Don't make me say it, and don't attribute it to God. Or I'm gone.

[Toad]

But not everyone is like you.

Some people WANT to do that stuff.

Oath to the boss/company? Isn't that the Japanese corporate model?

[Nash]

Some people "WANT" to do that stuff?

Good for them. Have atter.

Some people want to play chess. Some want to debate. It's all good. Make an "Oath" club and let these folks wear their vocal chords out silly during lunch.

[Toad]

Unless I miss my guess you are a "loner" type, not a "joiner".

Some people like the Boy Scouts and their oath too.

Some folks are real religious and makes "oaths" to their God.

Some folks like to join clubs.

It may not be what you like or I like but I don't think less of them for it.

YMMV.