And Now From Our What Were They Thinking Department

[Sandman]

I bet if I go digging, I could find similar statutes in most states. They're there... just a matter of time before they're challenged in court.

[Charon]

This always cracks me up.... folks proclaiming children are "forced" to pray or pledge but being unable to cite single public school instance.

Further, folks insinuating that if parents don't want their children to pledge or pray and instruct them not to do so that the kids are powerless robots in the presence of their peers.

And fortunately, school [particularly, but not limited to, Jr. High and above] is an entirely non-coercive environment socially where those who differ from the group at a particularly vulnerable and confusing time of life are respected by their peers and accepted. I can remember two or three kids in my high school class [actually I can remember examples back to grade school] who were significantly different. The hell they went through as the rest worked to build their self-esteem was really intense. A dozen or so who were somewhat less different worked real hard to stay in the shadows. Shameful to look back on today, but was a “kill or be killed” environment at that age and few are strong enough to stand up for their beliefs or stand up and defend others who differ (myself included at the time) with the group consensus. Why force an unnecessary choice as part of public policy?

And, without the overblown early 20th century fear of dark skinned Mediterranean Catholics, anarchists, Jews and socialists we wouldn’t have it in the first place; and without old Uncle Joe (Stalin or McCarthy) the whole god angle wouldn’t have been put in place. Kind of hard for me to really get behind coercive, band aid, superficial reactions to fear as great American traditions. And these are coercive for “right thinking” or they wouldn’t have become required in the first place. That’s why they are there. Think right or pay the consequences. Get with the program.

Charon

[Toad]

Sandman,

From your "Virginia Law" link:

During such Pledge of Allegiance, students shall stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student shall be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical or other grounds to his participating in this exercise.

Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge shall remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and shall make no display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards shall provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with the procedures described herein due to disability.

From the Northern California ACLU website FAQ's:

Q. Do California schools have to conduct Pledge of Allegiance ceremonies?
A. California�s Education Code requires public elementary and secondary schools to conduct daily patriotic exercises, although schools may substitute other patriotic exercises for the Pledge of Allegiance. Local school boards are expected to adopt regulations on patriotic exercises.

Q. May students refuse to participate?

A. Yes.  Until 1943, public schools expelled schoolchildren for refusing to salute the flag � and even prosecuted their parents for truancy. The victims were primarily Jehovah�s Witnesses, whose faith forbids them from pledging allegiance to secular symbols. Then, during World War II, the image of schoolchildren pledging with a stiff-arm salute was reminiscent of Nazi youth and the United States Supreme Court ruled that compulsory flag salute violated the First Amendment.  The right to free speech includes liberty to refrain from reciting words that do not reflect one�s beliefs. Therefore, if students disagree with some of the statements in the Pledge, they may refuse to participate.

Q. Do students have to stand during the Pledge?
A. No. Standing during the Pledge is itself a participation in the exercise and an affirmation of belief.  The school may not compel a student to engage in this symbolic act.  

Q. Can schools require students to leave the classroom if they refuse to take part?
A. No.  Provided that students who decline to participate are quiet and do not engage in disruption, schools may not exclude them from the classroom.

Q. May students be barred from school activities for refusing to participate in the Pledge ceremony?
A. No.  School authorities may not punish students for exercising their right to freedom of expression.

Unless you can show me otherwise, I still haven't seen a public school district where you are currently punished for not pledging or praying.

Nice try though.

[Chairboy]

Think about it.  The parent has to actually present a note to the school, or else the kid is in trouble for not reciting the pledge.  What kind of message does that send to you?

Tell me, how would you like it if the school required that you provide a note for your child to be allowed to say a prayer before eating their meal in the cafeteria?

[Pooh21]

I didnt say the pledge through my 6th and 7th grade years, and I didnt need no stinking letter.

[Toad]

Virginia:

if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical or other grounds to his participating in this exercise

California:

Therefore, if students disagree with some of the statements in the Pledge, they may refuse to participate.

Obviously, I missed the part about having "to actually present a note to the school".

Can you show me that part? Thanks.

[Chairboy]

That's how it was at the schools I attended, if it's not like that there, then great.  There certainly was a stigma attached by the teachers to those who chose not to participate.

[Toad]

I think this thread is talking about "now".

Sandman posted two links purporting to show that the pledge is required now. However, it just isn't required and you don't need a note.

I agree; way back when it was often required and you may have had to have a note to abstain.

It simply isn't that way now. However, perhaps someone can show me that there is a place that is still that way?

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Toad
It simply isn't that way now. However, perhaps someone can show me that there is a place that is still that way?

Guantanamo Bay Re-Education Center

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Toad
I think this thread is talking about "now".

Sandman posted two links purporting to show that the pledge is required now. However, it just isn't required and you don't need a note.

I agree; way back when it was often required and you may have had to have a note to abstain.

It simply isn't that way now. However, perhaps someone can show me that there is a place that is still that way?

I haven't found the statute in California code for the excemption. I didn't catch the one in Virginia law.

I did notice that Virginia attempted to pass a bill this year that required the schools to notifiy parents if a child did not participate in the pledge.

[Pooh21]

Ok quick vote how many of you attended school in the last decade?

ahh I see

So the rest of you geezers. We know you had it tough in yer one room school houses on the prairie.
Indian Attacks, walking both ways uphill 12 miles in blizzards, quill pens,corporal punishment,being forced under the threat of death to recite the pledge and say those 2 hoorible words. and all that jazz you guys like to talk about when you corner us whippersnappers.


Now in modern times, the leveled out the hills, since we dont live in the ice age no more blizzards, Henry Ford made mas production of the auto a reality meaning we could ride to school in a/c comfort.  We have ballpoints, pcs, they couldnt spank us no more. And we have an option to sit, or stand and say the pledge. To even replace those 2 horrible words with whatever we choose.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Pooh21
Ok quick vote how many of you attended school in the last decade?

.... We have ballpoints, pcs, they couldnt spank us no more. And we have an option to sit, or stand and say the pledge. To even replace those 2 horrible words with whatever we choose.

Back in the olden days the teacher learnt us a double negative ain't good grammar.

[Rino]

Originally posted by Nash
If my boss forced me to make a daily oath to him, I'd resent it.

I work because I love my job.

If my girlfriend forced me to take a daily oath to her, I'd resent it. I hang out with her because I love to.

If my country forced me to say good things about it, I would have considerably less good things to say about it.

I just cannot understand this fixation with an "oath."

"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

Screw that. I learn how to navigate and tie knots. In so doing, I appreciate what I am afforded. Don't make me say it, and don't attribute it to God. Or I'm gone.

     So you are basically selfish, and don't see the need or desire
to part of something larger than yourself.  If someone else does,
even in another country, why belittle that desire?

[Flit]

Originally posted by Sandman
Virginia (story) and Virginia law

and

California

Thats cool, I graduated from Loudoun Valley High School, which, obviously, is in Loudoun Co. VA
 And this guy is a perfect example of a "Nitpicker"wasting public money.
 He's been filing lawsuits for years,He ain't won yet.
 And yep, ya Hav'ta say the Pledge, unless you don't want to.


 

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Rino
So you are basically selfish, and don't see the need or desire
to part of something larger than yourself.  If someone else does,
even in another country, why belittle that desire?

Hope for his sake he never gets married. They tend to have you say a pledge during that ceremony also Only they call it Vows. Which is basically the same thing.