Author Topic: raider179 was right...  (Read 9228 times)

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
raider179 was right...
« Reply #330 on: September 25, 2005, 10:57:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
The Constitution is often inconvenient. But that is besides the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to comply. Justice Anthony Kennedy (1936 - )


Comply to the will of the people?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
raider179 was right...
« Reply #331 on: September 25, 2005, 11:11:57 AM »
Well, since I acknolwedged your choice of "interpret", I was wrong. My mistake.

I don't think each succeeding generation gets to twist what it says to suit the current ever-changing fancy. Take for example the First Amendment. If at some future point a generation decides that only the government should be allowed to own/operate the print/visual/radio media, that would be a totally unacceptable interpretation of the original First.

Jefferson's writings show that he thought there were two choices for the succeeding generations if they felt the Constitution needed to cover something new or reappraise an old value..

The Constitution has a built-in method for change, the amendment. The process is spelled out. If a succeeding generation decides only the government should run the media, then an amendment is the route of choice.

Quote
"Nothing is more likely than that [the] enumeration of powers is defective. This is the ordinary case of all human works. Let us then go on perfecting it by adding by way of amendment to the Constitution those powers which time and trial show are still wanting." --Thomas Jefferson to Wilson Nicholas, 1803. ME 10:419



Since all powers not specifically enumerated and delegated to the Federal government are vested in either the States or the people as a whole,

Jefferson's comment is enlightening. If, in the future, the people feel the Federal government needs powers not specifically enumerated in the original Constitution, there should be an amendment. He certainly doesn't prescribe a fickle "reinterpretation" according to "current fashion".

Quote
"A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48



Note that he didn't say "may reinterpret their laws and institutions". He said "change". There are numerous quotes that show the desired method of change is to assemble and amend.

Quote
"Happy for us that when we find our constitutions defective and insufficient to secure the happiness of our people, we can assemble with all the coolness of philosophers and set it to rights, while every other nation on earth must have recourse to arms to amend or to restore their constitutions." --Thomas Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1787. ME 6:295, Papers 12:113




The other Jeffersonian method is rebellion. Should such a "government media" amendment pass in one generation and then the next generation reappraises and amends that amendment to return media to private enterprise and the government refuses to hand it over to the people then you have grounds for rebellion.

Quote
I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much.

It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.


Hope that clears it up. Each generation doesn't interpret the Constitution to it's particular bias. The SC does narrowly interpret in the sense that it decides individual cases on Constitutional questions.

No doubt about my earlier statement that the Judicial has become the most powerful arm of the government is there? Thus the fact that SC appointments should be the highest priority when voters decide on a President.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
raider179 was right...
« Reply #332 on: September 25, 2005, 11:13:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Comply to the will of the people?


No, comply with the Constitution.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
raider179 was right...
« Reply #333 on: September 25, 2005, 11:41:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Comply to the will of the people?


Either yer not terribly bright or yer just being a dick.

I'll give yah the benifit of the doubt and guess...

So, Dick, tell me; where does that quote refer to the 'will of the people'? It refers to the Constitution and it's lawful ammendments and the Governments obligation to comply with it, regardless of 'convenience'.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
raider179 was right...
« Reply #334 on: September 25, 2005, 12:37:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
You have a responsibility to know the law, when you put yourself above it, you are irresponsible


So if I rob a bank, I can just tell the judge that as I am irresponsible, therefore I cannot be held responsible.  

Thanks for the defense strategy, but I think it will probably fail.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
raider179 was right...
« Reply #335 on: September 25, 2005, 01:55:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
simply put... it is a bad law if it takes away the freedom of choice for no reason worthwhile..
I agree with that, but in the case of the seatbelt law, which is what this thread is all about, I don't agree that there is no good reason. In the UK, 2000 lives are saved every year by that law - the same seatbelt law that exists in 49/50 US states. To my mind, that's 2000 good reasons.

My belief is that of the 95% of people who now wear belts in the car, the vast majority do so only because it's a legal requirement, but I also don't believe for one second that many of them feel that a serious infringement of their rights has been committed. As I've said before, the only reason many of them didn't belt up before was because they couldn't be arsed - not because they thought seatbelts were an intrusion on their liberty. The threat of a small fine was enough to get them to change their ways. Seems that the legislatures in 49 of your 50 states would agree with that.

By the way, the British seatbelt law was not railroaded through by government, but was instigated by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents - RoSPA - which is a registered charity. link.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
raider179 was right...
« Reply #336 on: September 25, 2005, 02:46:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
which is what this thread is all about,
[/b]

You're probably the only one left in the thread that thinks that. But that's OK... you don't have to participate in the ongoing discussion; post what you like.

Quote
My belief is that of the 95% of people who now wear belts in the car, the vast majority do so only because it's a legal requirement, but I also don't believe for one second that many of them feel that a serious infringement of their rights has been committed.
[/b]

I believe that Mars is a planet of vouluptous human women, starved for male companionship, living under the surface in caves that would rival the most hedonistic places on earth.

Unfortunately, just like you and your belief, I can't provide the slightest shred of proof for that hypothesis either.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
raider179 was right...
« Reply #337 on: September 25, 2005, 02:57:23 PM »
Well, like I said - the legislators in 49 of your 50 states agree with me, not you. Sorry that you're having such a hard time with that. I know it makes you angry.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
raider179 was right...
« Reply #338 on: September 25, 2005, 03:25:32 PM »
Doesn't make me angry; I just understand it and you don't.

See, if I could withhold millions from them if they didn't rescind their seat belt laws, I could get them to switch back in one fiscal year.

It would have nothing to do with the validity of the concept. It's a purely monetary issue.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
raider179 was right...
« Reply #339 on: September 25, 2005, 06:45:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Doesn't make me angry; I just understand it and you don't.
But earlier in this thread you said....
Quote
I base my anger upon the fact that there's way too many people trying to run other people's lives.

As you can see, it's one of the few things that does truly anger me.


Oh well, if you don't like the subject of this thread, you can always pretend it was about something else...

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
raider179 was right...
« Reply #340 on: September 25, 2005, 06:53:23 PM »
freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom  freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom

There ya go beetle, that should just about balance it out.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
raider179 was right...
« Reply #341 on: September 25, 2005, 07:08:35 PM »
freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom freedom

(you were about 8 short of a drubbing)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Jackal1

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9092
raider179 was right...
« Reply #342 on: September 25, 2005, 08:35:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I agree with that, but in the case of the seatbelt law, which is what this thread is all about


No, it` about freedom, freedom of choice and constitutional rights.
 Hmmmmmm...............I thought I had explained that before.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
raider179 was right...
« Reply #343 on: September 25, 2005, 11:44:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Either yer not terribly bright or yer just being a dick.

I'll give yah the benifit of the doubt and guess...

So, Dick, tell me; where does that quote refer to the 'will of the people'? It refers to the Constitution and it's lawful ammendments and the Governments obligation to comply with it, regardless of 'convenience'.



Ahh, the name calling, clear sign of a lost argument, thnx for playing
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
raider179 was right...
« Reply #344 on: September 26, 2005, 04:02:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
No, it` about freedom, freedom of choice and constitutional rights.
 Hmmmmmm...............I thought I had explained that before.
If that's really what it was about, that would be a very important issue - the sort of things over which wars have been fought.  In which case it's funny that even though this thread is spilling over 7 pages, fewer than 10 of us have made 5 posts or more. One could be forgiven for believing that the issue under discussion was of interest to only a small minority - something like the price of fish, or seatbelts...
Quote
loyal bubject of the Queen
Actually, I'm a British Citizen. Not that anyone on this board could tell you the difference. I'm not tied to Britain in any way except family, and can take up permanent residence in any of the other 24 EU countries, though only about four of those appeal - LOL.

Hmmmmmm...............I thought I had explained that before.