P51D Skin request. 4th FG for Fencer51

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Fencer51
I think that's because it is a 363rd FG Mustang.  I found two references to it being flown by the 363rd FG and lost in March 1944.

See this list HERE

Doubt that as the MACR is March 44 yet we've got a photo of the bird taken with the 4th in December 44.  363rd was inactivated in late August 44.  

Clearly a mystery how 43-6975 was still around in December 44 though when it was listed missing in March 44.

NMF Mustangs were'nt even in theater in March 44.  Would have been an OD/Gray bird.

It's the film type used that gives the nose marking the lite color look.

[Fencer51]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Doubt that as the MACR is March 44 yet we've got a photo of the bird taken with the 4th in December 44.  363rd was inactivated in late August 44.  

Clearly a mystery how 43-6975 was still around in December 44 though when it was listed missing in March 44.

NMF Mustangs were'nt even in theater in March 44.  Would have been an OD/Gray bird.

It's the film type used that gives the nose marking the lite color look.

Good points, see my revised posting, I am doing this from work and didnt think all the way through.  Obviously something is screwed up on those lists or we have duplicately serialed Mustangs.

[Guppy35]

Since you guys are being picky

Here's a photo showing a 334th B model parked right next to Red Dog Norley's kite.

It clearly has the swept back nose marking.  It's a QP kite and it's serial is, and I checked it, 43-24762.  I CAN"T figure out what the individual squadron letter is however!  So it would look exactly like Red Dog XII except it's a Malcom hooded B model.  Red tail, red outlined QP codes.  Just gotta figure out the letter!

[Krusty]

Sweet! There ya go!

Forgive me for being picky, it just helps to have a solid case when presenting this to HTC. You show an image with no red on the nose but blue and olive standing out clearly and they may say "Hm... I don't see anything" -- but you show them the faded red photo with the dark red photo and it becomes much clearer!

Now you've got a better case to present the skin as-is.

[Guppy35]

OK best guess

[Fencer51]

Dan,

Nice detective work.  Gotta love Escort to Berlin! Great book.

Now, let me rain on the parade.  Thats not Red Dog XII next to it.  Thats a different Mustang with the same squadron codes, but different serial numbers.  Its actually Red Dog XI.  I don't think it has the red outlined Squadron codes, so 43-24762 would not have them either.

However, I am not going to complain, good work.  

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Fencer51
Dan,

Nice detective work.  Gotta love Escort to Berlin! Great book.

Now, let me rain on the parade.  Thats not Red Dog XII next to it.  Thats a different Mustang with the same squadron codes, but different serial numbers.  Its actually Red Dog XI.  I don't think it has the red outlined Squadron codes, so 43-24762 would not have them either.

However, I am not going to complain, good work.  

Almost got me

But I said the B would look like Red Dog XII.  I said it was parked next to Red Dog Norley's kite

I saw the different serial as well.  I did have to look twice though

From a couple different sources I understand that the red bordered codes for 334th came into play in the Fall of 1944 so they're just not showing up in the image.

Either way I still want a swept nosed 4th FG B/C model so I can learn to fly the 51 better.  Just can't see myself in the D.  I built too many Monogram 1/48th scale Malcom hooded Bs as a kid

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Just can't see myself in the D.  I built too many Monogram 1/48th scale Malcom hooded Bs as a kid

LOL!!! I think folks who build model kits of a plane when young have a strong affinity for that plane. I know it's true of me, as well!!

I've built a few early 109s, so I have this irrational desire to fly one all the time! It's tempered by my sense of logic most of the time

[MachNix]

I think the photo of VF-S is mis-marked as 43-6975 that, as Fencer51 pointed out, was lost in March '44 while serving with the 363rd FG.  I think VF-S is really 42-106975, a P-51B-15 with the Malcolm hood that carried the codes VF-S and VF-N at different points in its carrier.  The "210" of the serial number was painted over with the blue on the rudder leaving the "6975" on the fin.  If the serial number was 43-6975, most likely the "36" would have been on the rudder and the "975" on the fin. Too bad we don't have a picture of VF-S's left side.

Okay, that means you have two choices:

A:  VF-S with a modified swoop to match the photo.  (Unknowns:  Id bands; red shadows to the VF-S.)
or
B: QP- with the same red nose swoop, red rudder, and ID bands as Morley's "Red Dog XI" in the foreground.  I would not add a plane code letter – think you would see part of a letter in the photo if the bird had one. (Unknowns:  Squadron code letters outlined in red at the time of the photo -- Yes, I'm picky.)

My vote is for choice B.  I think it is reasonable to assume that the bird would of operated with Morley's "Red Dog XII" and I think that is the objective with this skin.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by MachNix
I think the photo of VF-S is mis-marked as 43-6975 that, as Fencer51 pointed out, was lost in March '44 while serving with the 363rd FG.  I think VF-S is really 42-106975, a P-51B-15 with the Malcolm hood that carried the codes VF-S and VF-N at different points in its carrier.  The "210" of the serial number was painted over with the blue on the rudder leaving the "6975" on the fin.  If the serial number was 43-6975, most likely the "36" would have been on the rudder and the "975" on the fin. Too bad we don't have a picture of VF-S's left side.

Okay, that means you have two choices:

A:  VF-S with a modified swoop to match the photo.  (Unknowns:  Id bands; red shadows to the VF-S.)
or
B: QP- with the same red nose swoop, red rudder, and ID bands as Morley's "Red Dog XI" in the foreground.  I would not add a plane code letter – think you would see part of a letter in the photo if the bird had one. (Unknowns:  Squadron code letters outlined in red at the time of the photo -- Yes, I'm picky.)

My vote is for choice B.  I think it is reasonable to assume that the bird would of operated with Morley's "Red Dog XII" and I think that is the objective with this skin.

I'm all for choice b as well just for the in the air look flying wing on Red Dog XII.  My thinking with giving it the J was that it would have had to have been I,  J or L as you'd have seen some part of a letter otherwise.  The stuff in front of the area where you'd see the letter would cover the I, J or L.  Anything else would be showing some part of it.  Very much doubt it would have gone with no code letter.  Speculation of course, but since we're playing detective

QP codes outlined in red from Fall of 44 on and this was a January 45 image.

[Krusty]

I like "B", with one comment.

Ya know what? Just pick a letter!! Explain in the submission that the skin is accurate, but you had you use your best guess as to what the code was. They will understand!

[MachNix]

Here is choice B without a code letter.  As far as anyone knows, the aircraft was never assigned to a pilot and might not have had a letter applied.  I still think you would see the top of a code letter since they used a fairly bold font.  You can definitely see the "Q" around the aileron.

[Guppy35]

Looks good.

Having an assigned pilot wouldn't make a difference on having a code letter though.  Any operational plane would have had a squadron code letter.  The VF-S- had the slash on the end because there were two of them in the squadron.

Because the QP B model has hung 108 gallon tanks, it's clearly operational and waiting for the next mission.  Giving it any squadron letter at this point would work as there is nothing documenting a letter to that specific bird.  But it would have had one.

And I wanna fly it!

Sure appreciate all the work MachNix

[Krusty]

2 things:

1) Wasn't the rudder blue??

2) Check the profile for the "S" plane again, there is a sharper angle for the nose swoop. It goes straight down like a nose band, then at about 1/3 from the bottom makes a sharper turn.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
2 things:

1) Wasn't the rudder blue??

2) Check the profile for the "S" plane again, there is a sharper angle for the nose swoop. It goes straight down like a nose band, then at about 1/3 from the bottom makes a sharper turn.

He changed it to a 334th FS QP coded bird, not the 336th FS VF bird.  334th had red tails, 336th had blue.

He's going off the nose swoop on the B model in the second photo I posted.

Photo evidence from the same time frame eliminates the following as the code letter for that B model in January-February 44.  Leaning towards L now since there is no L listed for that time frame.

P51D QP-F
P51D QP-G      
P51D QP-H  Sizzlin Liz
P51D QP-I Zoomin Zombie
P51D QP-J      
P51D QP-K        
P51D QP-N   Skippy        
P51D QP-O  Red Dog XI,  
P51D QP-Q                      
P51D QP-R Georgie
P51D QP-V V Lazy Daisy
P51D QP-X Iron Ass