Author Topic: Super vrs Uber (Read 26201 times)

OttoJ · « **Reply #120 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:23:50 AM »

P-51 killers.

Maj.
Wilhelm Steinmann 12
44
JG 27, JG 4, EJG 2, JV 44
Ofw.
Heinrich Bartels 11
99
EJG 26, JG 1, JG 5, JG 27
Obstlt.
Heinz Bär 10
221
JG 51, JG 77, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44
Hptm.
Franz Schall 10
133
JG 52, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
Oblt.
Wilhelm Hofmann 10
44
JG 26
Hptm.
Emil "Bully" Lang 9
173
JG 54, JG 26
Hptm.
Walter Krupinski 8
197
JG 52, JG 11, JG 26, JV 44
Maj.
Georg-Peter Eder 7+
78
JG 51, JG 2, JG 1, JG 26, Ekdo 262, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
Maj.
Jürgen Harder 7
65
JG 53, JG 11
Oblt.
Heinz-Gerhard Vogt 7
48
JG 26
Lt.
Hans Fritz 7
12
JG 3
Obst.
Walther Dahl 6+
128
JG 3,JG z.b.v., JG 300, EJG 2
Hptm.
Siegfried Lemke 6+
70~
JG 2
Hptm.
Lutz-Wilhelm Burkhardt 6
69
JG 77, JGr. Süd, JG 1, EJG 2
Oblt.
Hans Dortenmann 6
38
JG 54, JG 26
FhjOfw.
Alfred Müller 6
16
JG 27
Hptm.
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 5
174
JG 77, JG 27, JG 7
Lt.
Oskar Zimmermann 5
34
JG 51, JG 3
Oblt.
Peter Crump 5
31
JG 26, JG 54
Lt.
Wilhelm Mayer 5
27
JG 26
Lt.
Hans Riedel 5
15
JG 77
Fw.
Otto Florian 5
12
JG 3

OttoJ · « **Reply #121 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:24:52 AM »

P-38 killers.

Hptm.
Franz "Nawratil" Schiess 17
67
JG 53
Ofw.
Heinrich Bartels 14
99
EJG 26, JG 1, JG 5, JG 27
Obstlt.
Kurt "Bu-mann" Bühligen 13+
112
JG 2
Hptm.
Herbert Puschmann 9
57
JG 51
Oblt.
Wilhelm "Willy" Kientsch 9
53
JG 27
Oblt.
Herbert Rollwage 8+
85~
JG 53, JG 106
Oblt.
Anton Hafner 8
204
JG 51
Maj.
Werner Schroer 8
114
JG 27, JG 54, JG 3
Maj.
Erich Rudorffer 7
224
JG 2, JG 54, JG 7
Hptm.
Joachim Kirschner 7
188
JG 3, JG 27
Maj.
Kurt "Kuddel" Ubben 7
111
J/186, JG 77, JG 2
Oblt.
Karl Paashaus 7
26
JG 53, JG 106
Maj.
Klaus Mietusch 6
75
JG 26
Hptm.
Hans Roehrig 6
75
Erpr.Gr. 210, JG 53
Hptm.
Gustav Frielinghaus 6
74
JG 3, JGr Süd, EJG 1
Oblt.
Günther Seeger 6
56
JG 2, JG 53
Ofw.
Siegfried Zick 6
31
JG 11
Obst.
Johannes "Mäcky" Steinhoff 5
176
JG 26, JG 52, JG 77, JG 7, JV 44
Hptm.
Robert "Bazzi" Weiss 5
121
JG 26, JG 54
Obst.
Gustav Rödel 5
98
JG 21, JG 27
Maj.
Eduard Tratt 5
38
ZG 1, SKG 210, ZG 26
Hptm.
Alfred "Martello" Hammer 5
26
JG 53
Oblt.
Paul Bley 5
7+
ZG 26, Kdo Nowotny

OttoJ · « **Reply #122 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:26:45 AM »

Four-engined bomber killers.

Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 36
78
JG 51, JG 2, JG 1, JG 26, Kdo Nowotny, EJG 2, JG 7 -
Maj. Anton Hackl 34
192
JG 77, JG 11, JG 76, JG 26, JG 300 -
Oblt. Konrad "Pitt" Bauer 32
57
JG 51, JG 3, JG 300 -
Obst. Walter Dahl 30+
128
JG 3, JG z.b.v., JG 300, EJG 2 maybee 36 Viermots
Maj. Werner Schroer 26
114
JG 27, JG 54, JG 3 15x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 26
102
JG 2 21x B-17, 5x B-24
Maj. Rolf-Günther Hermichen 26
64
ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, JG 26, JG 11, JG 104 -
Maj. Hermann Staiger 25
63
JG 20, JG 51, JG 26, JG 1, JG 7 21x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24, 1x Viermot
Lt. Anton-Rudolf Piffer 26
35
JG 1 17x B -17, 5x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 1x Stirling
Hptm. Hugo Frey 25
32
LG 2, JG 1, JG 11 19x B-17, 5x B-24, 1x Viermot
Lt. Alwin Doppler 25
29
JG 1, JG 11 16x B-17, 9x B-24
Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 24
112
JG 2 -
Hptm. Hans Ehlers 24
55
JG 3, JG 1 18x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Maj. Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Müller 23
140
JG 53, JG 3 15x B-17, 6x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Heinrich Wurzer 23
26
JG 302 7x B-17, 12x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Walter Loos 22
38
JG 3, JG 300, JG 301 -
Hptm. Hans Weik 22
36
JG 3, Erg.Gr.Ost, EJG 2 15x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Werner Gerth 22
27
JG 53, Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 16x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 21
221
JG 51, JG 77, EJGr. Süd, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44 11x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 8x B-24
Hptm. Fritz Karch 21
47
JG 2 -
Lt. Willi Unger 21
24
JG 3, JG 7 13x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 20+
102
JG 53, JG 2 -
Oblt. Wilhelm "Willy" Kientsch 20
53
JG 27 11x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24
Hptm. Hans-Heinrich Koenig 20
28
ZG 76, NJG 3, Jasta Helgoland, JG 11 10x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Willi Reschke 20
27
JG 302, JG 301 9x B-17,1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-17 e.V., 9x B-24
Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 19
71
JG 52, JG 26, EJG 2, JG 7 14x B-17, 1x B-17HSS, 1x B-17 e.V., 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Lt. Klaus Neumann 19
37
JG 51, JG 3, JG 7, JV 44 12x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Heinz Knoke 19
33
JG 52, JG 11, JG 1 15x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Hptm. Rudolf Engleder 19+
22+
JG 1, EJG 2 7x B-17, 10x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Hptm. Alfred Grislawski 18
133
JG 52, JGr. Süd, JGr. 50, JG 1, JG 53 17x B-17, 1x B-24
Ofw. Siegfried Zick 18
31
JG 11 12x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Lt. Anton Benning 18
28
JG 302, JG 301 -
Maj. Emil-Rudolf Schnoor 18
23
JG 1 15x B-17, 3x B-24
Maj. Herbert Huppertz 17
78
JG 51, JG 1, JG 5, JG 2 13x B-17, 4x B-24
Ofw. Eduard Isken 17
56
JG 77, JGr 200, JG 53 -
Oblt. Klaus Bretschneider 17
34
JG 300 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 6x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS, 1x B-24 e.V.
Oblt. Gustav Sturm 17
22
JG 27, JG 3, JG 51, EJG 2, JG 7 5x B-17,3x B-17 HSS,5x B-24,2x B-24 HSS,1x Lancaster, 1x Halifax
Uffz. Rudolf Hübl 17
20
JG 1 8x B-17,6x B-17HSS,2x B-24,1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Johannes Pichler 16
75
JG 77 -
Maj. Ernst Börngen 16
41
JG 27 -
Lt. Hans Iffland 16
18
JG 3 5x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Lt. Rudolf "Rudi" Rademacher 15
97
JG 54, JGr. Nord, JG 7 -
Lt. Leopold "Poldi" Münster 15
95
JG 3 9x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Otto Wessling 15
83
JG 3 9x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Oskar Zimmermann 15
48
JG 51, JG 3 -
Maj. Günther Specht 15
34
ZG 26, JG 1, JG 11 12x B-17, 3x B-24
Lt. Walter Köhne 15
30
JG 52, JG 1, JG 11, EJG 2 8x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Willi Maximowitz 15
27
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 10x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 14+
85~
JG 53, JG 106 -
Obst. Walter "Gulle" Oesau 14
125
JG 51, JG 3, JG 2, JG 1 10x B-17, 2x B-24, 1x Lancaster, 1x B-17 e.V.
Ofw. Erwin Laskowski 14
46
JG 51, JG 11 -
Oblt. Franz Ruhl 14
37
JG 3 10x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24, 2x Lancaster
Maj. Walter Matoni 14
34
JG 27, JG 26, JG 2, JG 11 -
Maj. Peter Werfft-Wessely 14
26
JG 27 4x B-17, 6x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Ernst-Erich Hirschfeld 14
24
JG 54, JG 300 -
Hptm. Gerhard Sommer 14
20
JG 1, JG 11 10x B-17, 4x B-24
Obst. Gustav Rödel 13
98
JG 27 -
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 13
75
JG 26 8x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Obstlt. Gerhard Michalski 13
73
JG 53, JG z.b.v., JG 4 8x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 1x Lancaster
Maj. Armin Köhler 13
69
JG 27 -
Maj. Erich Hohagen 13
56
JG 51, JG 27, JG 2, JG 7, JV 44 -
Hptm. Harry Koch 13
30
JG 26, JG 1 10x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS
Fw. Karl-Heinz Böttner 13
25
JG 77 -
Fw. Otto Pritzl 13
19
JG 51, JG 302, JG 3, JG 7 -
Lt. Emil-Karl Demuth 13
17
JG 1 9x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Oblt. Waldemar-H. Waldi" Radener 12+
37
JG 26, JG 300 6 Viermots as unconfirmed and probably further with JG 300
Maj. Erwin Clausen 12
132
LG 2, JG 77, JG 11 11x B-17, 1x B-24
Maj. Siegfried "Wumm" Schnell 12
93
JG 2, JG 54 -
Hptm. Karl Paashaus 12
26
JG 53 8x B-17,3x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Lt. Rudi Dassow 12
22
ZG 1, ZG 76, JG 6 -
Lt. Jürgen Hoerschelmann 12
18
JG 3 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Fw. Hans Schäfer 12
18
JG 3 2x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Peter Jenne 12
17+
ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 -
Ofw. Ernst Haase 12
16
JG 302 4x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Fw. Otto Ehrhardt 12
14
JG 3 8x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 11
101
JG 51, JG 26 7x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Hans Grünberg 11+
82
JG 3, JG 7, JV 44 5x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 2x Lancaster
Oblt. Eugen-Ludwig Zweigart 11
69
JG 54 9x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Lt. Walter Brandt 11
57
LG 2, JG 77, JG 3 -
Oblt. Karl "Charly" Willius 11
50
JG 26, JG 51 8x B-17, 3x B-24
Maj. Karl Rammelt 11
46
JG 51 -
Maj. Wilhelm Moritz 11+
44
ZG 1, JG 77, JG 1, JG 51, JG 3, EJG 1, JG 4 2x B-17, 2x B-17HSS, 3x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Friedrich May 11
29
JG 2 8x B-17, 2x B-24, 1x Lancaster
Hptm. Ekkehard Tichy 11
25
JG 53, JG 3 6x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Hptm. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr 10+
50
JG 1, JG 11 2x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Karl-Heinz Munsche 10+
20+
JG 2 9x B-17, 1x B-24
Fw. Hubert Engst 10+
15~
JG Hermann, JG 300 -
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 10
224
JG 2, JG 54, JG 7 -
Maj. Jürgen Harder 10
65
JG 53, JG 11 4x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Hermann Buchner 10
58
LG 2, St.G. 1, SG 2, SG 151, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7 -
Maj. Horst Haase 10
56
JG 51, JG 3 6x B-17, 4x B-24
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 10
55
JG 27, JG 104 -
Maj. Ernst Düllberg 10
45
JG 3, JG 27, JG 76, EJG 2, JG 7 5x B-17, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Herbert Schob 10
28
LG 1, ZG 26, ZG 76 -
Lt. Otto Russ 10
27
JG 53 -
Fw. Horst Rippert 10
26
JGr. 200, JG 27 -
Ofw. Hans-Gerd Wennekers 10
24
JG 1, JG 11 7x B-17, 3x B-24
Fw. Kurt Gren 10
23
JG 51, JG 3 -
Lt. Leo Schuhmacher 10
23
ZG 76, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44 -
Lt. Karl Wünsch 10
22
JG 27 -
Lt. Helmut Beckmann 10
18
JG 27 -
Lt. Hans Schrangl 10
14
JG 11 -
Ofw. Franz Steiner 10
12
JG 27, JG 1, JG 11, JV 44 6x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Heinz Seidel 10
11
JG 302 6x B-17, 3x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Fw. Gerhard Vivroux 10
11
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Fhj.Fw. Heinz Angres 10
10
JG 3 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Oblt. Hans Pancritius 10
10
JG 1, JG 11 -
Lt. Rudolf Metz 10
10
JG 5, Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3, JG 4 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Oblt. Fritz Stehle 9+
26
ZG 26, JG 7 -
Oblt. Erich Hondt 9+
14
JG 11, Jasta Helgoland, JV 44 -
Lt. Karl "Quax" Schnörrer 9
46
JG 54, JG 7, Kdo Nowotny 8x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS
Lt. Fritz Gromotka 9
29
JG 27 3x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Hptm. Hans Remmer 9
26
JG 27 3x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24
Hptm. Otto Meyer 9
21
JG 26, JG 27 -
Lt. Siegfried Müller 9
17
JG 51, JG 3, JG 7 2x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 6x B-24
Lt. Walter Hagenah 9
17
JG 3, JG 11, JG 7 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Hptm. Eberhard Schade 9
11
JG 27 -
Oblt. Heinrich Klöpper 8
94
JG 77, JG 51, JG 1 -
Oblt. Oskar "Ossi" Romm 8
92
JG 51, JG 3 4x B-17, 4x B-24
Ofw. Helmut Rüffler 8
88
JG 3, JG 51 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Hptm. Otto Schultz 8
73
JG 51 -
Oblt. Günther Seeger 8
56
JG 2, JG 53 6x B-17, 2x B-24
Oblt. Gerhard Vogt 8
48
JG 26 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24 HSS
Maj. Rudolf Klemm 8
42
JG 54, JG 26, JG 7 5x B-17, 3x B-24
Fw. Oskar Bösch 8
18
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Oblt. Kurt Gabler 8
14+
JG 300 2x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Alexander Ottnad 8
14
JG 27 -
Ofw. Artur Groß 8
11
JG 302 -
Lt. Hans-Ulrich Jung 8
10
JG 3 5x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Fw. Bernhard Kunze 8
9
JG 1 -
Maj. Heinrich Ehrler 7
208
JG 77, JG 5, JG 7 -
Maj. Theodor Weissenberger 7
208
JG z.b.v., JG 77, JG 5, JG 6, JG 7 -
Hptm. Hermann Segatz 7
40
JG 51, JG 26, JG 5, JG 1 -
Hptm. Johannes Naumann 7
34
JG 26, JG 6, JG 7 -
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Kapp 7
12
JG 27 -
Lt. Hannes Löffler 7
11
JG 27 -
Ofw. Eberhard Kroker 7
9+
JG 302, JG 300 -
Fw. Georg Schanz 7
9
JG 27 -
Lt. Willi Hallenberger 7
8
JG 51,JG 302 -
Ofw. Herbert Stephan 7
8
JG 302 -

OttoJ · « **Reply #123 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:30:21 AM »

Up till the Normandy landing the air war in the west was little more than a sideshow to the huge bloody war in the east. It is only natural that the kill tallies reflect this fact.

Bronk · « **Reply #124 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:30:34 AM »

otto take the brown shirt off and step away from the beer you have had 1 to many.

The germans had no need for a long range escort?!!!??
Tell that to the 109 pilots that had to ditch in the channel.
Geee there is you need for a long range escort rite there . How about a medium range escort even.

Bronk

OttoJ · « **Reply #125 on:** September 30, 2005, 07:33:19 AM »

They fixed that by adding drop tanks. You know, like the ones the P-51 needed to get anywhere far.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #126 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:06:10 AM »

Sure what ever you say Otto, aka Fw190fan.

Sept-Dec 1943

West - losses - 5153

East - losses - 1736

Jan-May 1944

West - losses - 10,745

East - losses - 3214

Yes for sure some sideshow with the LW suffering 75% (Sept-Dec 43) and 77% (Jan-May44) of their total losses in the West. Note that this was all before D-Day.

You need to improve your a/c recognition skills. It was the P-47, not the P-51, that needed drop tanks to get anywhere far. The 109 could not even match the range of the Spitfire.

OttoJ · « **Reply #127 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:30:24 AM »

Fw190fan? I'm a 109/262 fan. (or isn't that obvious?)

Without drop tanks the P-51's operational range was limited to France.

Bf109G-2 R1 and R2 variants had range to spare. This R1 long-range fighter-bomber also carried a 500kg bomb. The G-2 R1/R2 had a range that rivaled that of any allied fighter, dwarfing the Spit's range.

If the Germans were to find themselves in need of a long range escort fighter they already had a solution. Fact is, the Germans didn't need a long range fighter except for very specialized tasks such as reconnaissance. For those tasks they HAD long range versions of the 109 and 190.

OttoJ · « **Reply #128 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:32:30 AM »

Before the Normandy landings the war in the west WAS a sideshow to the war in the east. How many soldiers got killed on the eastern front in that same timeline? The war was won on the ground ... in the east.

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #129 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:35:29 AM »

Yep, OttoJ's point is valid on the long range possibility for the 109/190. It was never needed for them, that is.

Besides, the 109F, G-K had a range with a single droptank of 1000-1200 miles. Someone should tell me why more would be required. They never needed to escort bombers from GB to Berlin...

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #130 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:37:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The 109 could not even match the range of the Spitfire.

Nice flamebait, Milo.

Charge · « **Reply #131 on:** September 30, 2005, 08:44:24 AM »

"I'm always amazed when I read the "uber 109" threads. "

Über 109 threads usually try to state that 109 was competitive with aircraft of the same era, not obsolete cr4p.

"Personally I don't think the 109 was sucessful at all,didn't the German lost the war ?"

Eh? So the 109 could have won it if it were a better plane?

"The germans lack of vision in this regard is probably the single greatest reason they lost the war."

Heh, this sounds like that outdated "small wingloading" line.
I'm sure overwhelming numers of opponents had nothing to do with Germany losing the war... I'd point that responsibility to one person with funny moustache...

Ed: The Jumo engined 109 was called a "Mule" by Israelis and it was very much disliked by its pilots because of bad handling qualities.

-C+

OttoJ · « **Reply #132 on:** September 30, 2005, 09:00:48 AM »

Oh yes the Avias were deathtraps. Says a lot for the skill of the Israeli pilots that they manage to score victories in them.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #133 on:** September 30, 2005, 09:10:52 AM »

We are taking about airplanes Otto.

I don't see any kill tallies for the number of Ivan foot solders. Why do you hide your other nick? Fw190fan was, and most likely still is, Barbi's little lapdog. There is a simularity between you and him.

The P-47 was limited to the French/German border. The P-51 had a range of almost 1000mi on internal fuel at max cruise speed. This was 3 times the range of the 109 at max cruise speed. This P-51 range, with internal fuel, is almost the same as the 109 with d/t at most economical speed. Barbi has you brainwashed.

The Fw190 with wing drop tanks was a female dog to fly and you want us to believe the 109 was not as well. Nice report in Andrew Arthy's Fw190s in Africa book.

Show me that the 109 had greater range than the Spit Kurfy. The range you state is for most economical speed. On internal fuel, the 109 could do just over 600mi at most economical speed while the Spitfire could do over 800 mi at most economcal speed.

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #134 on:** September 30, 2005, 09:15:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
On internal fuel, the 109 could do just over 600mi at most economical speed while the Spitfire could do over 800 mi at most economcal speed.

Really, I`ve got 434-450 miles for the mid/latewar Spits, 615-725 miles for the 109 on eco cruise.