Author Topic: 2 Norwegian coastguard inspectors kinapped  (Read 6567 times)

Offline Hangtime

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2 Norwegian coastguard inspectors kinapped
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2005, 12:58:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.


edit: The Captain of a vessel is the ultimate authority on board.. if those men are still aboard, it is because that's what he intended.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline Jackal1

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2 Norwegian coastguard inspectors kinapped
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2005, 01:04:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Estel, nothing would please me more than outright hostilities between Scandanavian republics and Russia over transgressions on the Scandanavian Fisheries. I'm certain of which side The EU and the US would come down on, and it ain't Russia we'd be backing up.

 


I expect karaya to be in any moment with the "violence" lecture. :)

I noticed he was unable to point out the violence reference in my posts in this thread, so you are IT. :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2005, 01:06:56 PM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2005, 01:09:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Update:

Now the inspectors have been told to stay onboard by the Coastguard to continue their job.

Boarding is now a real option to arrest the ship. It will be stopped by force if they have to. I bet special forces are getting ready.

The russians have sent a destroyer to keep the norwegian coastguard ships from entering Russian waters (they wont do that)

The "agreement" between Norwegian and Russain governments to get the inspectors off in Russian waters and returing them to Norway is not known by the Norwegian diplomats so this is a something that only the Russians have agreed to.

We have subs in the area.


Brilliant. I am impressed. Someone probably didn't play enough war games when he was a kid.

Maybe you are kidding? Do you think people in CG command can start a war because of several hundreed kilogramms of stinking sprats?

Where do they want to intercept Elektron? in White Sea?

Nilsen, don't you know if there were any Norvegian inspectors on board of Elektron?

It's all quite silly. Keeping "hostages" to avoid enemy fire is idiotic. Trying to start hostilities because of some "illegal fish" that probably isn't there at all is stupid. Trying to escape from trial at the cost of losing a license (they'll definetly lose it) is crazy. Following a violator into international waters to intercept it is a combination of impotence and idiocy. Imagining that patrol boat can do anything against Levchenko is wishful thinking. Sorry.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2005, 01:16:16 PM »
Hell, Russia is still a country with a dictator only the population doesn't know it yet.

Ordered or not to stay onboard now, they were not ordered from the beginning when the trawler ran away.

Svalbard is norwegian territory.

So tell me Estel, if us Swedes refuse to recognise the fact that Russian rules say that we're not alowed to fish within Russian waters, should we ignore it and get away with it without consequences?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2005, 01:16:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.


Echo of Moscow is a local branch of Voice of America. They are 100% anti-Russian and pro-Western. "Voice of liberals and democrats", "Free radio for free people", etc.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2005, 01:24:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Hell, Russia is still a country with a dictator only the population doesn't know it yet.


Oh poor, poor me!!! Believe me, I have other things to worry about then to discuss if comrade Putin is a dictator. I don't ****ing care. As for me - we lived much better under "bloody communist regime".

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
So tell me Estel, if us Swedes refuse to recognise the fact that Russian rules say that we're not alowed to fish within Russian waters, should we ignore it and get away with it without consequences?


Can't you see the difference between "Norvegian waters" and "Waters where Norvegians want to control all fishing and other activities"? It's not even their economic zone, see Nilsen's map.

Offline Estel

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2 Norwegian coastguard inspectors kinapped
« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2005, 01:30:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Check that map again.. those waters and the fish population there represents the economic health of Norway and Scandanavia.. that's their breadbasket you are encroaching on, overfishing and abusing. Those resources are Strategic as far as Scandanavia is concerned and this encroachment and abuse of treaty by Russia could be construed as a serious provocation.


Looks like you don't know.....

Ok, when in 1920 Norway annexed Spitsbergen, there began major discussions between Norway and Russia about using this land. In 1925 they established an agreement about cooperated use of the Spitsbergen. In 1947 it was corrected due to limitations of UN.

Now. In 1976, UN declared about right of every country to have 200 miles economical water zone. This zone should be 200 miles from _mainland_. In 1977, Norway declared 2 zones. One zone 200 miles north of mainland, and another one. 200 miles around Spitsbergen wich they named "Fisheryguard zone". Soviet Union signed agreement about first zone and denied agreement about second zone. In first, because of Norway don't have and never had rights to exclusive use of this place and in second, because of Soviet Union had fishery interests in that region.

By the way, maybe you don't know, but we have two towns on Spitsbergen.

Ok, let's continue. In 2001 Norway is denying season fishing for countries who do not participate an agreement of 1925/1947. For all others they created quotas. But norwey trawlers still fishing without any quotas and limitations. After that in 2004 they denyied fishing for russian trawlers. Only quotas. Maybe Norway forgot, but Spitsbergen is not official norway territory. It's still "under external control". And any limitations can be applyed only if all memebers are agree with that.

After 2004 there began serios problems for both sides. Russian trawlers began to be arrested and punished. The same was made the first time in the history for norway ships. After that, Norway offered temporary agreement of using fisherguard zone. Due to this agreement, Norway coast guard still can check russian trawlers, as it can do for all others in the region. But they can not punish them or arrest. Just control. The agreement was signed.

Another part of this agreement was about cooperated duty of our border guard ships in the region. For example, norway ships can be under the protection of russian border ships and vice versa. But here began strange situations, when our ship is on duty, Norway coast guard is not present in the region and all trawlers, russian and norway are feeling ok. Just our ship is living area, Norway coast guard beginning unlawful arrests and punishments.

So, this situation should be solved in 4 years due to agreement.

And norway trawlers still fishing without any quotas and limitations.

Quote

I hope they kick your tulips all the way back to Murmask.

 
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Sure you can hope. If you think this will help you.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2005, 01:32:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Estel
Tell me, what should do the trawler captain after receiving an order to return to Murmansk? Drop inspectors in the water? Stop the trawler so it can be hijacked? Send inspectors in life boats when the waves are 6-8 meters?


Nice flawed argument.
Even the dumbest Russian sailor know the rules at sea I won't be surprised to discover in a nearest future that non ever called from Murmansk?

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Kidnapping first of all assumes presence of mercenary interest (ÛÔ my understanding). Where do you see it here? Or you think that trawler crew will ask money for them?[/B]


You're wrong : http://www.answers.com/topic/kidnapping-legal-term
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kidnapping, in law, the taking away of a person by force, threat, or deceit, with intent to cause him to be detained against his will.

Don't confuse the act with the motivation



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If you don't know, goverment has offered another way. Counter-sub vessel "TVER" can approach trawler, pickup inspectors and deliver them to Norway. But Norway denied this offer. Why they denied?[/B]

Dunno.
But your governement should have arrested the captain of the trawler at least.

 

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Yes. In 1977. When they established Spitsbergen fisherguard zone. Denying any agreements of 1935 and 1947. [/B]

I'm speaking of the 2 guys in board of the russian ship.
Not something else.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2005, 01:38:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I don't believe anything put out by Russian radio. They simply have ZERO credibility.


well I allways thought it was something like :


Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2005, 01:43:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Oh poor, poor me!!! Believe me, I have other things to worry about then to discuss if comrade Putin is a dictator. I don't ****ing care. As for me - we lived much better under "bloody communist regime".


Did I say I wanted to discuss it? I know it is of no use. Communism has been proven flawed time over time again. It's not what this thread is about though.

Simple fact is still that the trawler broke the law, more then one law too.

Hopefully the Russian government will take action. If not, I hope the vessel will be taken care of if it ever brakes the rules again or enter Norwegian enconomic/fishing zones and/or Norwegian waters.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Estel

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« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2005, 01:45:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo

You're wrong : http://www.answers.com/topic/kidnapping-legal-term

Don't confuse the act with the motivation



Yes, looks like I missed here. We have 2 different things "nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" and "zahvat zalozhnikov" Boroda will translate the terms.

But here we see, that they were offred to leave the trawler but denyied.

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Dunno.
But your governement should have arrested the captain of the trawler at least.

 
Sure. Until investigation will end.

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I'm speaking of the 2 guys in board of the russian ship.
Not something else.


Me too. They do not have legal rights to arrest the ship.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2005, 01:51:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Estel
Me too. They do not have legal rights to arrest the ship.


Perhaps ,but you can't condemn for a act they perhaps intended to do but didn''t have done ?
do you ?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2005, 01:52:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Estel
Yes, looks like I missed here. We have 2 different things "nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" and "zahvat zalozhnikov" Boroda will translate the terms.


"nezakonnoe lishenie svobody" - illegal deprivation of liberty (imprisonment).

"zahvat zalozhnikov" - taking hostages, probably not a correct transtation, in Russian meaning is combined with "taking for ransom".

Offline Estel

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« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2005, 02:02:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Perhaps ,but you can't condemn for a act they perhaps intended to do but didn''t have done ?
do you ?


No. They did it. They arrested the ship. Withdrawn all journals and personal documents. Also withdrawn flag certificate. And tryed to tow the trawler Norvegian port. But the cable was torn.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2005, 02:12:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Did I say I wanted to discuss it? I know it is of no use. Communism has been proven flawed time over time again. It's not what this thread is about though.
 

It's quite wise not to argue about things that you don't know.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Simple fact is still that the trawler broke the law, more then one law too.


They will be held under trial for what I have translated for Estel.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Hopefully the Russian government will take action. If not, I hope the vessel will be taken care of if it ever brakes the rules again or enter Norwegian enconomic/fishing zones and/or Norwegian waters.


I think their license will be definetly called back. Just for the trouble they made and enterntainment they provided to the Western public. whoopee brig Mercury, "We are about to sink but we'll not surrender" my ass...