Author Topic: Furballers Vs. Toolshedders  (Read 13504 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #465 on: November 10, 2005, 08:01:56 AM »
off on some confusing crusade again beet?   AH1?  we aren't playing AH1 or early warbirds here...  there are so many things that are wrong or intentionaly dishonest in your post it is hard to know where to begin...

someone pointed out you used my name in another thread..  I had to tell them that you must have been thinking of another lazs.  

The gunnery here and what we seen in early WB is night and day different.  

There is no 15' of bullet drop for a .50 cal that is sighted in at say 400 or 500 yards like guys do in this game.  I stand by what I said...if you sight in your guns at 4-500 yards and you shoot at a sitting duck and you have 1000's of hours of practice and there is no fear of death involved and you are in a comfortable room looking at a computer screen....

It is indeed possible with an accurate gunnery model, to hit said plane once in a while at 800-1000 yards..  

now... when was the last time you had a wing removed in AH2 from 1000 yards?  Oh wait....

you don't play?  Well... I guess it is you who is doing the same thing over and over eh?

lazs
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #466 on: November 10, 2005, 08:35:33 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
off on some confusing crusade again beet?    
No, I was commenting on your previous post. And there is only one "lazs" - thank Cod. ;)

As I said in that other thread, I could calculate the likelihood of bullets hitting the target from a given range, if only I knew the angle of dispersion. I admit I was wr..., er... mistaken about "built in" dispersion, but it seems likely that some dispersion would be necessary to give the pilot the chance of scoring hits, and would have to be put there if it didn't already exist because of flexing wings, hot gun barrels etc., as pointed out by the other posters.
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There is no 15' of bullet drop for a .50 cal that is sighted in at say 400 or 500 yards like guys do in this game.
I never said there was. Refer to 2bighorn's values in that thread - 11ft drop at 800 yards, 15ft drop at 900yds.
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It is indeed possible with an accurate gunnery model, to hit said plane once in a while at 800-1000 yards..
I agree, and as I said earlier, our own D. Bader busted the oil system of an Me109 at that range, with a very lucky ping. But - as Bader said himself - the proportion of ammo that would be wasted at that range would be huge, and it would not be possible to shear wings off at that range, as was a matter of routine in certain WW2 flight sims I could mention. ;)  I was able to calculate how huge the ammo wastage would be after reading posts in the other thread.

I say again, the max effective range for the .50cal was 1000' or 333yds. That is straight from the US Navy gunnery manual of 1944, and supplied by 2bighorn.
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there are so many things that are wrong or intentionaly dishonest in your post it is hard to know where to begin...
What I have said is based on the facts available, as endorsed by that US Navy manual. Are you saying the US Navy got it wrong?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #467 on: November 10, 2005, 10:01:12 AM »
sheeesh... do you know how you are making yourself look?   there is no 15' bullet drop at 1000 yards when a .50 is sighted in at 400-500 yards.

and no... I am not saying the navy is wrong unless they are claiming that a .50 isn't accurate or effective past 300 yards... guys who shoot .50s regularly stay on a jeep at 2000 yards..  the amount of enerygy at 1000 yards is still on the order of three times what a .30 has at the muzzle.

Again... so that you don't get confused... if you have your convergence set at 400-500 yards and you have a steady gun platform and fresh mounts and guns and the target is a sitting duck and you have 1000's of hours of practice and are in a comfy room behind a comfy monitor with no fear of your life.... it is indeed possible to get hits on a target that is 800-1000 yards out with an accurate gunnery model...  

even so... and you wouldn't know about this since you don't play... people rarely do it in AH... most close to ranges of 200-400 before firing even with convergences set at 400-500.

Tell ya what.... play the game... sighn up and play... then get back on here and tell us something that has the weight of experiance behind it.... experiance that is better than 3 versions and two games back that is..

lazs
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Offline doc1kelley

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« Reply #468 on: November 10, 2005, 10:23:59 AM »
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Originally posted by Furball
batclown, the attitude of the blue knights doesnt really stem from what we are told to do, it is the attitude of the people they look to recruit.  people that join are a certain type of player.

i up bombers occasionally and bomb things, because i like deathstarring people that engage me.  i know how to rank, i know how to bomb, i just choose not to as i do not find any satisfaction in it.


You young jedi apprentice have no idea what a Deathstar is!  Now if you'd flown in AW you would definately know what a deathstar was and can do.  roflol

All the Best...
Jay
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #469 on: November 10, 2005, 10:40:49 AM »
I was in AW when it was dos.... does that count?   they had deathstars then.   It was funny but nothing like we have now... in those days the guys were just having fun and not really out to accomplish anything or prove anything..

these days the fluffs are used to "prove" that being skilless is just as important and worthy as anything else... that their lack of skill has a purpose.   That patience in the face of extreme bordom is somehow...in itself a "skill"

and... they demand not only respect but participation by those who would normally ignore them.

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Offline cempa

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« Reply #470 on: November 10, 2005, 12:15:29 PM »
Gee, Lasz, I was in AW when it was DOS too.  I paid my $6/hr in the evenings and $12/hr during the day to play on a 2400 baud modem on GEnie too.  I paid to enjoy the joys of Aladdin lag on the boards.  I remember when John Taylor and Kelton Flynn invented the game.   If that's the criteria, then my opinion is just as valid as yours. ;)

   I guess I'm one of those "fluffs" who doesn't just tool around in the sky all evening shooting at anything that gets in my front view.  Unlike many of those who only furball, I know how to take off from and land on a carrier deck.  Maybe you've forgotten, but there were gvs and cvs and buffs back in the original AW too.  Go figure.  I wonder if maybe adding more than one dimension to the game was intentional?  

  Like AW (very like), this game has many aspects.  Some choose to play only one aspect of the whole game.  If you want to just fly around shooting at others just flying around, then fine. Do so.  If you want to just drive a tank, then fine. Do so.  If you want to just fly B17's in the loneliness of near earth orbit above the clouds, then fine. Do so.  It's all good, Lasz.  Because you only want to fly in a furball doesn't make you better than anyone else playing this game.  See my earlier post.  The same goes for those who only toolshed.  One or the other or both doesn't make you better than anyone else.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 12:57:03 PM by cempa »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #471 on: November 10, 2005, 02:34:16 PM »
cempa... missed your earlier post..  I do see that you were in AW dos..

That doesn't make either of our opinions any more worthwhile...  it wasn't about that..  the guy was telling us what a deathstar was and I used dos AW as a qualifier that I knew what one was... you do too... that doesn't lend or take away weight from our opinions about what is going on in AH..

pretty much.... the "deathstar" or even gv's or bombers in the early AW (I quit AW when it went windows and never went back so don't know about later versions)  pretty much, that early AW... had nothing to do with the type of action we see here in AH.  

not  many were paying $6 an hour to do.....well.... you call it.. what did you call it?  "If you want to just fly B17's in the loneliness of near earth orbit above the clouds,"  yeah... do nothing...  not many payed to do nothing...

deathstars weren't paying to do nothing... they were all about action.   they also took some skill to do well...  those who they slaughtered had to admit that a lot of skill was involved in what they did...

now... the thing that is happening here is... that the skilless aren't happy with just sightseeing as you claim.... they want their lack of skill to be recognized as... well, as a skill?  laughable.

They are essentially saying that if not forced... or even if given the opportunity.... no one will play with them soooooo...

The game has to be designed so that they have a huge effect on those that do not wish to have anything to do with them.

lazs
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Offline Waffle

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« Reply #472 on: November 10, 2005, 02:38:06 PM »
after playing flight sims for how ever long, surely you know how to shoot  a bomber down...

Offline cempa

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« Reply #473 on: November 10, 2005, 03:22:33 PM »
I understand, Lasz.  I just wanted to chime in as one of those who doesn't just do one or the other, and claim it's the best.  

  There were a lot of people who were willing to pay by the hour to fly buff missions.  But back then, it was easier to find gunners - for some reason.   It was fun to sit around with 3-4 other guys in a B-17 and chat while the bomber climbed forever to alt.  A manned (not just a pilot, for those playing the home game) B-17 was a nightmare for attacking fighters.  For the same reason, it was exciting to climb to alt to attack a buff; because you never knew until the last minute if it had manned guns.  Fun for all.  

  B-17's weren't the boring part.  It was driving a tank to a fight before someone invented spawn points.  Now that was boring. ;)  I had to be really, really drunk - too drunk to fly drunk - to do it.  But I did it on occasion, even at $6/hr.

  I guess my point is just that neither side is all right; and neither side is all wrong.   There are times when I'm trying to take a field and I get PO'd that everyone else there just wants to dogfight.  There are times when I just want to dogfight and get PO'd because someone buffs the fh's on one side or the other.   I don't hate furballers and I don't hate toolshedders.  I don't even hate my ex-wife.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #474 on: November 11, 2005, 06:10:57 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
and no... I am not saying the navy is wrong unless they are claiming that a .50 isn't accurate or effective past 300 yards...  
Read the other thread, in particular the posts made by 2bighorn. He quoted from the US Navy Gunnery manual from 1944. I haven't seen it myself, but 2bighorn advises us that it states that the maximum effective range of .50 cal was 1000ft - 333yds.
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guys who shoot .50s regularly stay on a jeep at 2000 yards..
Please explain the above statement, and how it relates to WW2 aerial combat. "guys who shoot .50s regularly stay on a jeep" - does this mean they don't fall off?
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if you have your convergence set at 400-500 yards and you have a steady gun platform and fresh mounts and guns and the target is a sitting duck and you have 1000's of hours of practice and are in a comfy room behind a comfy monitor with no fear of your life.... it is indeed possible to get hits on a target that is 800-1000 yards out with an accurate gunnery model...
...and please explain how that relates to WW2 aerial combat. Were the pilots able to set their convergence in flight, or at all? Did they have a "steady gun platform", what with vibrations from the engine(s), buffeting due to turbulence and (as Grendel pointed out in the other thread) guns that could overheat, introducing further inaccuracies? Did the pilots of WW2 have 1000s of hours practice? Did they have an accurate gunnery model? ;) You know as well as I do, Lazs, that in these games, the bullet radius can be tweaked to allow easier gunnery, with bullets the size of marrows. That's what was done in at least of the WB training wheel arenas.
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Tell ya what.... play the game... sighn up and play... then get back on here and tell us something that has the weight of experiance behind it.... experiance that is better than 3 versions and two games back that is..
It won't alter the facts, Lazs. And the fact is that routine air-to-air destruction at 800+ yds is BS. Sure, AH2 addressed the easymode gunnery. Don't you recall all the whine threads when it was no longer "easy"?

 How much air turbulence is there now in your favourite WW2 sim/game? What about clouds?

You are hardly in a position to pontificate about realism, when you support your friends who make demands like "Get rid of night"/"Get rid of clouds"/"Get rid of oil on the windscreen".

Offline CHECKERS

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« Reply #475 on: November 11, 2005, 09:34:03 AM »
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Originally posted by doc1kelley
You young jedi apprentice have no idea what a Deathstar is!  Now if you'd flown in AW you would definately know what a deathstar was and can do.  roflol

All the Best...
Jay
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #476 on: November 11, 2005, 09:42:11 AM »
beet you will never get it.   you want to artificially make the guns work worse in order to get the results of WWII...

you want the gunnery to be bad enough that even guys with thousands of hours of practice can't get any better at gunnery than a farm boy who never fired a machine gun from a plane till he got his hour total of practice and maybe less in real combat...

as for the navy report... It is simply wrong.   A .50 is extremely effective out to 2000 yards... the amount of energy is many times that of a .30 out to 1000 yards even when you measure the .30 at the muzzle (that's point blank to you).   The navy is wrong if what you state is true.   "effective"? how is having thounsands of pounds of energy (enough to smash an engine block) at 1000 yards not "effective"?

I haven't read the thread... no need to.   You are pretty much saying that if a WWII soldier could not do it then no one could no matter how much practice they had or how much less strain or...

And this I will admit... how well the guns were regulated... we are not at the mercy of an armoror to hope that he gets the convergence correct... it is allways correct... we are not at the mercy of poor mounts... ours are allways new and fresh (as are our barrels)...  we don't have much turbulance and so have the best shot the gun platform (that particular plane) can possibly have...

given that.. and the unlimited time and ammo to practice... it is not too much of a stretch to think that we might exceed the results of WWII pilots to some degree....  and... even tho not many fired at long range in WWII...  many many here try it...  soooo...  probly in WWII it was pretty rare that they tried... those who did probly got one hit in 1,000 rounds... those who try it here.... probly get one ping in 500 rounds... seems about reasonable considering experiance and all the other factors I have named...  

Oh... "staying on a jeep at 2000 yards" that means.... with a 50 they can fire full auto and keep all the rounds on target (the jeep) ....

I would challenge said navy manual writer to sit in said jeep to show me exactly what "not effective" meant to him.  You could sit next to him and take notes and come back and report to us?

No night?  how is flying day fighters at night realistic?  Who did that except out of desperation?

anything else?

lazs
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #477 on: November 11, 2005, 11:22:35 AM »
Lazs,

I'm really not interested in what is/was possible in any games/sims. My interest is what was possible in real WW2 aerial combat. From that it is possible to judge how accurately it is modelled in our game of choice. For example, I think you'd find the gunnery in IL2 a lot different from AH1 or WB, and rather more difficult.
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as for the navy report... It is simply wrong. A .50 is extremely effective out to 2000 yards...
Lazs, I'm beginning to think you live in an orchard, for as often as you post apples and oranges to this board. 2bighorn has posted in the other thread that the bullet drop would be 15' at 900yds. At 2000yds it would be so much more that aiming would be impossible. Oh and let me remind you of what you said in that old thread - the one you'd rather forget!
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I have allways gotten in close to kill and even ol' 350 kill Eric felt cannon only worked at point blank range and he had the film to prove it. Hopefully all guns in WB will be a guaranteed kill or cripple with a 2 sec burst on target when under 100 yards.
A 2 second burst on target when under 100yds, did you say? Oh yes you did - I still have that thread!

So you're saying that you know better than the USN when it comes to the capability of a .50cal round? I'd love to forward your comments to the USN to see what they had to say about it. Once again, you might be able to aim and fire a single shot with great accuracy at the gun range with the weapon of your choice, the barrel resting on sandbags. But there's a world of difference between that and firing MG from a moving target at another moving target, with your wings flexing and the plane vibrating and being buffeted by air turbulence and the gun barrels getting hot etc.
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You are pretty much saying that if a WWII soldier could not do it then no one could no matter how much practice they had or how much less strain or...
We're talking about WWII airmen, not WWII soldiers.
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I haven't read the thread... no need to.
Of course - what you don't know isn't worth knowing, and you could create a new career for yourself as weapons advisor to the US Navy. :aok
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given that.. and the unlimited time and ammo to practice... it is not too much of a stretch to think that we might exceed the results of WWII pilots to some degree.... and... even tho not many fired at long range in WWII... many many here try it... soooo... probly in WWII it was pretty rare that they tried... those who did probly got one hit in 1,000 rounds... those who try it here.... probly get one ping in 500 rounds... seems about reasonable considering experiance and all the other factors I have named...
Based on what you've already said yourself, it would take more than one hit every 1000 rounds to cripple a plane, with the possible exceptions of oil system damage resulting shortly afterwards in a forced landing.
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No night? how is flying day fighters at night realistic? Who did that except out of desperation?
Oh, are you saying that AH no longer has buffs? Were you successful in your quest to have them whined out of existence with threads like this? As I recall from WW2 historical accounts, B17s were sent out to destroy targets in Germany. They used the cover of night, because unlike you and your ilk in AH2, the fighter defence of WW2 was indeed capable of getting organised and repelling a buff attack, were it to be mounted by day.

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #478 on: November 11, 2005, 12:41:00 PM »
I've reached the point I actually feel sorry for you.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #479 on: November 11, 2005, 02:11:58 PM »
Actually I feel sorry for Lazs ... he keeps tryin' and doesn't realize that it just won't work.
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