Author Topic: Cal Prop 75 Is A Lie (Read 1802 times)

g00b · « **Reply #45 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:28:51 PM »

I can think of many reasons why the government needs to Require public employee labor organizations to maintain and submit records to Fair Political Practices Commission concerning individual public employees’ and organizations’ political contributions and none of them are good. I don't understand why this is ok with anyone. This is the real meat of the issue, not the opt-in vs. opt-out of how the unions spend your dues.

g00b

lazs2 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:37:20 PM »

I read everything I could about the proposition and the current law..

you are the one not reading it and avoiding answering.

the current law does not say that the union must take out only that portion of your dues that is used for political contributions...

What it really does is allows the unions to charge you for collective barganing... they can make you in affect... not a union member. you are only paying for and recieving the collective barganing.

if you choose this option then you will forfiet any other union benifiets like representation or any others. They are able to punish you if you don't support the candidates you hate. You are in effect not a union member... just someone who they bargin for at collective bargining...

What 75 does is make it fair... you pay for the things the union does for you but you either pay for the politica candidates they choose for you or... say... no thanks... I will pick my own political candidates... other than that, you remain a union member in every way.

and lists... If you are so afraid of lists then why did you put yourself on one?

The union told me that I could opt out of membership but still be part of the collective barganing if I paid a certain ammount to them..

When I said "no, I want to not pay the portion that goes to contribute to political parties and you can keep the money to go to widows and orphans fund or.... send it to the republican party for me every year." They told me that they could not do that. When I told them that they had taken away my right to choose what politics I supported they told me that I was wrong because I had the choice to elect a union member to vote for me and that I could pick him from the parade of commies that they gave me to choose from..

sooo.... you are missrepresenting what choice we have now. You are also not correct in saying that additional lists will be kept... It is being kept now.

There is no sensible reason to not vote for 75 and give people an easier chance to make a choice.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #47 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:42:10 PM »

goob.... the lists are being kept now. under the current law and...

There is no list that tells who individuals contribute to in prop75..

Have either of you read the actual text of the prop that shows what the form would be? it simply asks if you would like your union to choose what political party your money goes to.

It does not say that you will or won't contribute to any party or person in any way. It just lets them use your money or it lets you use your money... what you do with your money is as secret as you keep it.

lazs

Sixpence · « **Reply #48 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:55:30 PM »

Here you don't have to pay union dues and they still must represent you, or you can sue the union. The one that gets you 4 weeks paid vacation, a decent wage, 9 paid holidays, and a decent pension(that won't get raided by corporate ceo's).

Damn unions

GreenCloud · « **Reply #49 on:** October 31, 2005, 02:59:08 PM »

well i alrigthed voted by absentee..

voted yes on prop 75..screw thsoe unions

BUT...Lazs..I voted NO on teachers thing....It says in the text if its passed teachers can be fired WITH NO HEARING

I say No..

They LIE and say Teachers cant be FIRED right nOW..THAT is a LIE..they can and DO get fired...After a hearing

Arnold Sucks Diq....Im pissed that bch passed the 50 cal law..what a horror..He makes me sick...the politicans make me sick..makes me angry..Why doesn he Expose all there CRAP..and wasting money..Becuase hes pretty much one of them now...

lazs2 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 31, 2005, 03:05:56 PM »

I am not sure I understand the teacher one... I thought that "performance evaluation" meant that the performance of the teacher was evaluated. If that is the case then getting two bad evaluations should get you on the road to being fired..

The "gray" area here is that someone told me that "performance evaluations" in this case (no other I know of) meant that teachers were responsible for how the students did... that is not right to me.... If the teacher presents all the material and gives all the tests then how the students do is up to them.

so...I am sure that funky can straighten this out. which is it? I will vote according to what the answer is.

lazs

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 31, 2005, 04:46:36 PM »

The official evaluations only look at how you teach. Does your course material comply with the curriculum standards and district and school policies? And are you doing an effective job of teaching that material?

There's a paper part (where you set goals in Q1 and have to show you accomplished them by Q4) and a subjective part where the evaluator (principal or vice principal) watches you teach and critiques you. If you fail in any of those phases you have to make an improvement plan, and if you fail at that then you start looking at disciplinary action or termination.

But, even if you did great on your official evaluation, but all your students were failing and parents were complaining, you can be sure that the next evaluation would magically not go so well.

Likewise it's unlikely you could pass the subjective part of the evaluation and be a total failure as an instructor.

However it's not like those evaluations are the only way you are evaluated. Those are just the only ones that say "Evaluation" on them.

There is a lot of stuff spelled out in the contract that you have to do, and there is a lot of unofficial stuff too.

Anyways to answer the question, the performance of your students is not an official part of teachers' evaluations, at least in my district. If there are low test scores or other low performance indicators, its the principals who take the heat.

BigGun · « **Reply #52 on:** October 31, 2005, 05:01:57 PM »

What part of CA u from funked?

lazs2 · « **Reply #53 on:** November 01, 2005, 08:38:30 AM »

funked... then based on that and knowing how public employment works.... I would have to say that I would vote yes.

Evaluations are the only means of getting rid of an employee on the public role. All people who give performance evaluations are required to go to seminars to show them how to do them.... all public employees that I know of can protest their evaluations and have them reviewed by a department head/administrator. I do evaluations ... to get rid of someone I had better have some real viable and well documented data.

If your school has poor evaluation process then this prop would probly force them to take a look at doing fair evaluations.

gonna have to vote yes... this just seems like another area where teachers should not get a pass.

lazs

GreenCloud · « **Reply #54 on:** November 01, 2005, 12:58:55 PM »

ok..the reason I voted NO

1) It takes away a hearing and ONLY relies on "evaluations"

2) When You move from one District to another ..you start all over with...and have to start over to get "tenure"

midnight Target · « **Reply #55 on:** November 01, 2005, 01:05:06 PM »

This is why my Mom, who had her masters degree and taught elementary school for 40 years wouldn't set foot in a public school for all the money in the world.

It was not uncommon for her to devise a test she knew most of the class would fail... just to get their attention. Try that in a public school.

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #56 on:** November 01, 2005, 01:47:46 PM »

The current system is fine with me, but 74 doesn't really bother me.
It puts more power in the hands of local government (school board), which is something I think we need in every aspect of government.
The only part I don't like about it is the state government dictating local hiring and firing standards. School districts and employees should be free to negotiate terms of employment without state interference.

B17Skull12 · « **Reply #57 on:** November 01, 2005, 11:32:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GreenCloud
BUT...Lazs..I voted NO on teachers thing....It says in the text if its passed teachers can be fired WITH NO HEARING

I say No..

They LIE and say Teachers cant be FIRED right nOW..THAT is a LIE..they can and DO get fired...After a hearing

wow. Why can't i be 18 yet? Ok let me try to get this through your head. Some teachers just need to go away quick. And let someone more capable do their job. A perfect example is my physics teacher. Ok here are notes. And then he just rambles on and in really we come out knowing nonthing. Then we do the lab and everyone ask questions and we fall very far behind the other class because their teachers explain stuff. Now i think why should be teaching when he does. All he does is grade. There should be no hearing, he should just go and quickly.

ok rant done.

lazs2 · « **Reply #58 on:** November 02, 2005, 08:49:40 AM »

A hearing? How is that more fair than the evaluation process?

I don't know how their evaluations work but if someone does not agree with my evaluation then they are allowed to discuss it with me and another department head where my evidense of what I say is true is brought out.

If I don't have enough documented evidence then the evaluation is changed..

what bothers me is that teachers seem to be living in some lala land where there are no rules. It works both ways...

they claim that tho... they are part time workers getting full time pay.... they really work a lot more hours than you and I and the rest of the unwashwed out there so deserve all kinds of concessions in pay... (like a zillion hollidays)

I say... prove it... if you need more time to do your work... ask for it and do it after your day is over AT THE FACILITY and getting overtime pay....

If you have a crappy evaluation system then lets get it out in the open instead of simply saying it is not good so we need to offer some sort of blanket protection for the likes of B17's physics teacher.. he don't sound like he is worth a protectionist program.

If evaluations were done in a legal manner it would be impossible for a good, or even adequate, teacher to getr two bad ones in a row.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 02, 2005, 09:14:00 AM »

and funked.... if you are a monopoly.... like teaching and public schools and you are funded by taxpayers money that can't be used by those it is extorted from for other schools (vouchers) then you had damn well better be regulated by some form of central government (the state).

You are asking that we be forced to support the public schools and that you will also self govern how they are run (programs, hireing fireing). If there were vouchers.... then you would have a point.

so long as you are the only game in town then there should be some clear cut rules that you follow that are the same from district to district.

this would include some sort of fair evaluation process so that everyone was on the same page and everything was out in the open. If the evaluation process needed to be modified (too harsh too lenient) then the modification would be universal across the state. out in the open.

lazs