Author Topic: Who is lying about Iraq?  (Read 1011 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« on: November 10, 2005, 12:26:33 AM »
Since we are feeling all political tonite I figure I'd post my favorite article of the week.

COMMENTARY

December 2005

Who Is Lying About Iraq?

Norman Podhoretz

Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.




The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

[t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.




So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

Contd here

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/Production/files/podhoretz1205advance.html

Offline Denny_Crane!

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2005, 12:29:22 AM »
It's a good feeling, you know, to shoot a bad guy. Something you Democrats would never understand. Americans... we're homesteaders, we want a safe home, keep the money we make, and shoot bad guys.

Offline Nash

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2005, 12:45:44 AM »
GUN... Gun... gun...

That's what's called an editorial.

Wherein, the author gets to, basically go off. Lose his ****, as it were.

Much the same as we do, here, every night.

So.... BOOM! You wanna give us a sampling of Podhoretz as if we haven't been choking on the guy?

It is based on him that I have been lobbying for looser restrictions on the meaning of "criminally insane."

The dude is basically: Neocon Godfather.

His stuff aint exactly panning out (ie. his grand ideas are going to **** and beyond), and him and his buds are lining up for their walking papers...

So what do we really give a damn about them?

Ultimately?

What do we need to learn from him other than how not to go about things?

Offline Mighty1

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2005, 07:29:33 AM »
Is there a time warp or something?

December 2005?!

Isn't it only November 2005?
I have been reborn a new man!

Notice I never said a better man.

Offline T0J0

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2005, 07:44:16 AM »
Don't get Nash all fired up this early in the morning! He might spill his Cafe' Moca latee  on this months copy  of "O"

TJ

Offline AWMac

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 08:02:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mighty1
Is there a time warp or something?

December 2005?!

Isn't it only November 2005?


I caught that also. :huh

Offline DREDIOCK

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2005, 08:22:10 AM »
Doesnt matter to me who or if anyone was lying.
I've said all along the only reason I needed to be given we were going into Iraq was "Because its Tuesday"

Was something we needed to deal with in a definitive manner at some point in taime anyway. And something that should have been dealt with in GW1.

Far as Im concerned. The bombing of the Barracks in SA and the assassination attempt on former pres Bush Sr.  After the cease fire agreement were in themselves an act of war.
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Offline lazs2

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2005, 08:23:22 AM »
The sadman had WMD's in the past and would probly have em again if left alone to run his country.  Having him gone and a democratic republic in the center of the middle east is a good thing...

The cost in U.S. lives has been very small... the amount of terrorist attacks in the U.S. since 9/11 has been nil...  

hard core terrorists are lining up for the snipers sights every day in iraq...

The moral of the soldiers is good...

All braches of the service are exceeding their recruiting quotas except the army which is only off a few %.

It is expensive tho... but... it will get paid off... unlike some social program that will grow into a multi billion dollar a year debacle for eternity.  It will be good when we can get out.

so yeah... I am not upset about throwing out the sadman.   All the hand wringing and crocadile tears and mocha spitting from little socialists  who have no stake in America is just predictable blather.

lazs

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2005, 08:29:33 AM »
I fail to see how this thread is any different than someone just posting links and not posting any personal views on the subject.
-SW

Offline lasersailor184

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2005, 09:00:02 AM »
I would just like to point out that the morale of the british soldiers hasn't been too outstanding.

Lately, they've been investigating every single shooting by a soldier as Murder.
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Offline Mustaine

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2005, 09:10:57 AM »
great article gun, thanks.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 02:14:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mustaine
great article gun, thanks.


WHAT  MY GAWD MAN ITS AN EDITORIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Didn't you know all editorials are wrong...go stick you head in the sand....quick.


[reality]
yea I liked it to, it really puts a great perspective on events that are fogged by time[/reality]

Offline Clifra Jones

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One more time we see the Liberal Big Lie.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2005, 02:20:09 PM »
You just got to wonder why GW hasn't nailed them on it. I just don't get this President. I don't understand what he's afraid of.

April 26, 2004
Saddam's WMD have been found.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

Quote

Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:


A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N." Why was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on humans if he didn't have a biological-weapons program?

"Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort of 'starter set.'"

New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that were not declared to the United Nations.

A line of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, or drones, "not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 kilometers [311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the permissible limit."

"Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."

"Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] -- well beyond the 150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a 1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt] and Abu Dhabi [United Arab Emirates]."


Just because we didn't find a ready Nuke doesn't mean there were not weapons there.

One of the things  I heard while watching Kay's testimony to congress was his statement that Iraq was far more dangerous than we even thought. The fact was that Saddam was losing his grip on his associates. Especially his sons. It was his fear that some of these scientist would start to freelance. I.E. another Khan network. As always, these statements were completely ignored by the Left-Stream media. (I think this was during a QA session as it's not in his opening statement and I don't have time to look for it now.)

Anyway, here is his Statement to Congress. Read it and tell me you would have rather done nothing.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/David-Kay-Iraq-WMD2oct03.htm

Quote

Although we are resisting drawing conclusions in this first interim report, a number of things have become clearer already as a result of our investigation, among them:

1. Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Even those senior officials we have interviewed who claim no direct knowledge of any ongoing prohibited activities readily acknowledge that Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to either restart CW production or make available chemical weapons.

2. In the delivery systems area there were already well advanced, but undeclared, ongoing activities that, if OIF had not intervened, would have resulted in the production of missiles with ranges at least up to 1,000 kilometers, well in excess of the U.N. permitted range of 150 kilometers. These missile activities were supported by a serious clandestine procurement program about which we have much still to learn.

3. In the chemical and biological weapons area we have confidence that there were at a minimum clandestine ongoing research and development activities that were embedded in the Iraqi Intelligence Service. While we have much yet to learn about the exact work programs and capabilities of these activities, it is already apparent that these undeclared activities would have at a minimum facilitated chemical and biological weapons activities and provided a technically trained cadre.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 02:22:23 PM by Clifra Jones »

Offline Dowding

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2005, 04:58:12 PM »
I seem to remember a certain Tony Blair saying that Saddam possessed WMD that could be deployed within 45 minutes.

"Plans and advance design work" equates to a 45 minute readiness to deploy?

"Reference strains" equates to a weaponized WMD with a 45 minute readiness to deploy?

"...prison laboratory complex that MAY have been used for human testing..." equates to a 45 minute readiness to deploy?

"Continuing covert capability to manufacture [missile] fuel propellant... maintained at least until the end of 2001" equates to a 45 minute readiness to deploy in 2003?

Aspirations and intentions are not what we went to war over. That was never the casus belli. It was the possession of weaponized WMD, that was field ready that was deemed to be the immediate threat.

The goal posts have now shifted. Or rather been dismantled, packed and shipped to opposite ends of the solar system.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline crowMAW

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Who is lying about Iraq?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2005, 07:23:39 PM »
Quote
To lie means to say something one knows to be false.


Here is a lie:

Quote
We know where they (WMD) are.
Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003 on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos"

They did not know where the WMD was located...if so, they would have found it in the place that they looked for it.  If he had said, "we think we know where the WMD are", then he would have been truthful.