doughnut

[mars01]

Allow me to put this to rest. You cannot section off those three fields. It would make getting to the fields around the center very long and ardous for everyone else playing the game. Stop and think about it.

No Disrespect Skuzzy, but when I stop and think about it, I really don't think those are strategic fields in any way.  They do not make it any easier to take any of the fields around the immediate center.  The only thing that makes taking those bases easier is taking the one next to yours and working your way around.  

And then if you really want to get radical, don't put FT in the middle, put it on an island in the corner of the map away from the WAR.  Problem solved and a big part of your community can play your game at any time they log in, without hurting anyone and these kind of arguments go away.

[FDutchmn]

I donno but here is my thought...

People have been questioning about having Fightertown or un-capturable bases in the middle, but has anyone given a thought about putting the capturable ones in the middle and the un-capturable ones on the sides?  AW Classic maps were like that.  Only the neutral fields in the middle was capturable.  It was fun that way too, for all types of players.  Of course, that would mean that we need to change the criteria for "winning" the war, in this case, shall we say capturing all capturable bases?  We can have different criteria for "winning" for different maps...

Just a thought...

[Simaril]

Originally posted by mars01
Nice story Sim, but there is no "superiority complex" and the assumption, "that low-n-slow TnB is the only fight style worthy of the skilled." is also incorrect.  Again putting words in peoples mouths doesn't make your point.  

Mars, I never intended you to think that you had a superiority complex --which is why I addressed the question to Lazs. You'd have a hard time arguing that he doesnt dis those who like to fly differrently. He has an entire stable of put down names for non-furballers, from "Fluffs" to "mouse weilders" to "strat girls" to "europ eans" (for those who like teamwork). His posts are filled with words like "skilless".

If you'd like me to do a search, I'm sure I could provide conclusive evidence of Lazs' TnB superiority attitude with only a thread or two. I stand by the statement that he (and some others) have a furball superiority complex.

And for what its worth, I dont ever want to put words in other peoples mouths -- especially when there are some mouths I certainly dont want to get that close to.

[lazs2]

simar.. I don't think we are talking about the same thing.   I have noticed that a capped base you can stay alive in the FM2 or a spit or a hurri or a zeke or... whatever if.... If the cappers are timid.  If they take timid little shots at you and run back as you dodge...

In a real furball or... a cap that includes some spits or even niks or whatever... you are gonna get tied up...  soon as that happens... the cherry pickers will lose their timidity and come at ya..

In a furball... it is not as zazen says at all... that is not surprising since... like you, he really doesn't know what one is...  In a furball.... If you are in say... an FM2... about half the planes turn better than you... the other half don't... all but maybe one can outclimb or outacellerate you.... Under the best of situations... but... the furball is never the 'best of situations" that is the point... you are fighting with no e or the good climbing plane missjudged your e... or... you are engaged with 30 or 40 possibilities between what you can do... your opponnents can do and .. your teammates can do...or... any of the above in combination...   You also know that unless their are friendlies around... you ain't gettin home by runnin less you are very close.  

I do salute you on being so good in the FM2 tho... most I run into don't seem to have much skill in it.   I can't think of any other plane that I can't kill an FM2 in... In the CT it is childs play to kill em with lala 5's

If you cherry pick... your e is constant.  The best it is gonna get... you have (relatively) all the time in the world to tulips the victims e and... any possible threat to you and your e state.   You need patience and a good aim... you might need some low speed skills if you deem that you can turn a little with the victim without exposing yourself to danger.

I know how to do it... I just think it is boring and it makes ya rusty.   rook is a good place for you tho if that is what you like because... by choosing say a typhoon or other fast plane with cannon and rook... you have given yourself as many advantages as you can before you even start... if that is the style of play you like.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by lazs2

In a furball... it is not as zazen says at all... that is not surprising since... like you, he really doesn't know what one is...  In a furball.... If you are in say... an FM2... about half the planes turn better than you...  

What 'half' the planeset does an Fm2 not out-turn?!?! I have flown the FM2 quite a bit, the only plane I couldn't out-turn easily was a zeke or very well flown hurricane or Seafire/Spit5. As for me not knowing what a furball is, I was furballing before you ever knew there was such a thing as WW2 Air Combat sims. I have been in more furballs, just in  a turnfighter than you have in any plane in your entire life I promise you that. I know exactly what a furball is, and I know exactly what it takes to be successfull in one in every role. You presume far too much from your little world of contempt.

Don't presume just because I choose to not get low n 'slow in a compromising situation in a swarm of red if I can help it I do not know of that situation or furballs. I do not presume because you do choose to do so you know nothing about E fighting. I would never be as presumptuous as you are, nor would I hold such contempt for people who choose to fly differently than I do. There are all kinds of 'good' in this game, my kind of 'good' suits me, yours suits you. That is not to say we lack the ability to be good flying a different way than we do, we simply choose not to for the 'fun' factor.

Being a tactical minded person, I know the value of having the initatiative in combat. When you put yourself down low n' slow, you give your opponent the initiative, he can engage or dis-engage you at will, he can force you to follow him, he can make you break off. You are basically his little hand puppet. When you E fight, that is maintain through manuevering an E advantage over your opponents you maintain the initiative, you dictate where/when/how/if a fight occurs, you force him to break-off, you can lead him around by the nose. Maintaining the intiative in any form of combat is of quintessential importance, it is the most powerfull tool. That is the essence of the difference between pure E fighting and pure Angles Fighting. Each method provides a unique set of challenges and requires often similiar sometimes different skills, and of course there is always some inter-mingling of the two. They are more similiar than different, the single biggest difference is the initiative factor.




Zazen

[lazs2]

for someone who is so full of himself.... you sure don't know anything about furballs.   I said "in a furball half the planes can out turn you"..

In a furball...  obviously you have no idea what one is if you think that the entire planeset is represented in the furball in equal numbers.   Mostly it is spits.   more than half I would say in most good furballs... some hurris and... if a carrier is involved... a few zekes.... very very few FM2's despite what a simple plane they are to fly.

lazs

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I was furballing before you ever knew there was such a thing as WW2 Air Combat sims. I have been in more furballs, just in  a turnfighter than you have in any plane in your entire life I promise you that. I know exactly what a furball is, and I know exactly what it takes to be successfull in one in every role. You presume far too much from your little world of contempt.

Time to get out the waders.

[mussie]

I used to love the FM2 Till I got on the tail of one in a Hurri 1

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by lazs2
I said "in a furball half the planes can out turn you"..

In a furball...  obviously you have no idea what one is if you think that the entire planeset is represented in the furball in equal numbers.   Mostly it is spits.   more than half I would say in most good furballs... some hurris and... if a carrier is involved... a few zekes.... very very few FM2's despite what a simple plane they are to fly.

lazs

The only Spit that can compete with the  sustained turn-rate of an Fm2 is the Seafire/Spit5 and it's still very close, pilot skill/equipment being the deciding factor.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by lazs2

In a real furball or... a cap that includes some spits or even niks or whatever... you are gonna get tied up...  soon as that happens... the cherry pickers will lose their timidity and come at ya..

 

That's exactly correct, you have lost the initiative, the fight is no longer under your control. You are now at the mercy of any and every plane that may choose to take advantage of your predicament. That is why getting low n' slow in a crowd is 'un-fun' to alot of people. There are no tactics to it, the moment you engage a plane in  protracted turn-fight with a comparable rate of turn and begin the merry-go-round you are pulling your pants down and showing your bare arse to the world. If you are very good, of Leviathn calibre, you may be able to once in a while get away with this. He does so by virtue of the fact, if you watch films of him, he has incredible gunnery skill, so he can kill quickly allowing himself to remain vulnerable for only relatively short lengths of time. I have watched 50+ films of Leviathn in a variety of planes, one thing that impressed me right away was the fact that his flying skill was far surpassed by his amazing gunnery skill. But, even so, Leviathn, more often than not, does not get away with it. People like you or mars only rarely get away with it, as both of you have gunnery skill I would rate as abysmal to piss-poor at best.

So, if engaging cons low n 'slow, pulling your pants down and begging the world at large to raid your bum is your idea of fun, hey, "Good Luck With That!" But, to the rest of us getting low n 'slow is only something we intentionally do in situations where we are likely to not have to pull our pants down to the rest of the furball. In the other situations we'll fight our way and maintain the intiative thru prudent E management, by doing so affording us the opportunity to dictate our own fates and not have it decided by any old passer by with the ammo and the desire to do us in the bum while we are bent over the preverbial kitchen sink.

How you fine fellows got the notion a furball is ONLY defined as a bunch of planes getting low n' slow with each other in a protracted stallfight to the exclusion of all else I'll never know. But, that's not what a furball is. A furball is a multi-plane engagement between a variety of usually DIS-SIMILAR aircraft at varying altitudes and E states, employing various tactics over a finite geographic area (this definition came straight from a US Navy Fighter Combat manual). I have read every anecdotal account of fighter combat in WW2 I can find in print. Never, once have I heard of a fight that occurred exclusively on the deck between a bunch of similar planes getting low n' slow in a protracted stallfight. Yet there were hundreds upon hundreds of "Furballs" in WW2.

Zazen

[mussie]

Sorry Zaren but I have to disagree

Have you looked at Kweassa's
The Complete Aces High2 Fighter Turn Performance

Flaps Plane (Stall Limiter) Seconds Speed Radius
No Flaps FM2 (0.05) 18 133 170.4
No Flaps Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05) 17     117 141.5
Full Flaps FM2 (0.05) 18     100 128.1
Full Flaps Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05) 17       97 117.3

But you should not need that to know the spit 1 will out turn it

[mussie]

and not ahve it decided by any old passer by with the ammo and the desire to do you in the bum while you are bent over the kitchen sink

You do have a point there Zaren....

But its a dam thrill to mix it up with superior opponents, hell I nailed a bunch of N1k's in FT the other night in an F4U-1.

At one point I was heading home to land 3 running on veypours and a squady called for back up as I turned to assist I saw a fellow knight with a con dead on his six about to get whomped so I told him to head straight for me.

It was a hell of a merge the knight zoomed past the con and I took our shots and missed I mixed it up and my squaddy got down with four.... I ran out of fuel and did not get to land those kills but man it was a fun fight.  

Later I did find out that landing 2 niks in an F4U-1 is worth 25 perks...

Still is your 14.95.... Each to their own eh

[Simaril]

Originally posted by lazs2
simar.. I don't think we are talking about the same thing.   I have noticed that a capped base you can stay alive in the FM2 or a spit or a hurri or a zeke or... whatever if.... If the cappers are timid.  If they take timid little shots at you and run back as you dodge

... snip...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

Thanks for a reasoned response.

I understand your point about the difference between a furball and a horde, so I guess my thoughts were more about TnB vs other styles. I wouldnt consider myself "good" as a FM2 jockey, and I absolutely know my SA limitations (data overload above 3 cons). I would not succeed as a furballer, partly because of my skillset and partly because I'm jsut built as a cautious, analytic, pretty unspontaneous, and team/task oriented person.

So dont take my comments as a smackdown about furballs. I really respect those of you who can take the tough rides into a swarm of red, get kills, and often get back out. I was asking more about the general condescending attitude some hold towards all other styles.

Take an extreme example. A vulch kill takes very little ACM skill compared to a outnumbered furball kill. But, I've seen people land 13 kills in a Mossy without a rearm. That takes gunnery, careful ammo conservation, smart maneuvering (getting to the upper before the rest of the vulching flock, without setting up a deadly snap spin or low alt stall) -- OK, and it also takes some pretty persistantly stupid enemies. That kind of flight takes a real skill too, even though its about the antithesis of the furball flight.

So why the blanket smacktalk about other pursuits? (I'm not talking about antisocial behavior like killing FHs or capturing in fightertown.) Even if your approach is polar opposite from the score chasing guy who lands row after row of cherry picked kills while keeping his KPH up, he's got skill at what he does...which is why he scores higher than the other score chasers....

Just a thought....

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mussie
You do have a point there Zaren....

But its a dam thrill to mix it up with superior opponents, hell I nailed a bunch of N1k's in FT the other night in an F4U-1.

Oh yes, I never meant to imply that it could not be fun or exciting. I have had many such experiences. The 'un-fun' part is the fact that for every such experience there is 20+ experiences where the opposite happens.  I am not like Lazs or mars01, I do not think any style is intrinsically better or worse than another. To me any kind of fighter combat is potentially fun. My argument is with them asserting that the only 'pure fighting' is the on the deck, yank n' bank stall fight. They like to insinuate that anyone who isn't yanking and banking a Spit on the deck is not furballing and has no talent or skill. My contention is that to be successfull in a highly competitive environment such as this requires many, many skills, there is no one charactersitic or style that defines good and a furball is a sum of the parts that encompass all of these styles. A good pilot is a collection of skills combined with the aircraft he is in and the tactics involved. To say someone only has skill as a fighter pilot if he is stallfighting on the deck in a Spit would be like saying a Musician is only great when he plays a C note, playing a D or an F note he's a poor musician.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mussie
Sorry Zaren but I have to disagree

Have you looked at Kweassa's
The Complete Aces High2 Fighter Turn Performance

Flaps Plane (Stall Limiter) Seconds Speed Radius
No Flaps FM2 (0.05) 18 133 170.4
No Flaps Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05) 17     117 141.5
Full Flaps FM2 (0.05) 18     100 128.1
Full Flaps Spitfire Mk.Ia (0.05) 17       97 117.3

But you should not need that to know the spit 1 will out turn it [/B]

Well, that's pretty close, the Spit 1 has to get alot slower to out-turn an FM2. Is that with the stall limiter on? that would make a difference. I looked up the stats before I posted for the SPit V and Seafire never thought to check Spit1 as it's rarely ever flown. Also, is that the instantaneous or sustained turnrate, Fm2 has far better flaps than the Spits, that makes a HUGE difference, Spits don't actually really have manuevering flaps at all their flaps were made for landing primarily.

Zazen