Author Topic: Murtha.. what did he just say?  (Read 2009 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« on: November 19, 2005, 03:23:07 AM »
Transcript:

The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public is way ahead of us. The United States and coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq, but it is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk. We can not continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interest of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region.

General Casey said in a September 2005 Hearing, “the perception of occupation in Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency.” General Abizaid said on the same date, “Reducing the size and visibility of the coalition forces in Iraq is a part of our counterinsurgency strategy.”

For 2 ˝ years I have been concerned about the U.S. policy and the plan in Iraq. I have addressed my concerns with the Administration and the Pentagon and have spoken out in public about my concerns. The main reason for going to war has been discredited. A few days before the start of the war I was in Kuwait – the military drew a red line around Baghdad and said when U.S. forces cross that line they will be attacked by the Iraqis with Weapons of Mass Destruction – but the US forces said they were prepared. They had well trained forces with the appropriate protective gear.

We spend more money on Intelligence than all the countries in the world together, and more on Intelligence than most countries GDP. But the intelligence concerning Iraq was wrong. It is not a world intelligence failure. It is a U.S. intelligence failure and the way that intelligence was misused.

I have been visiting our wounded troops at Bethesda and Walter Reed hospitals almost every week since the beginning of the War. And what demoralizes them is going to war with not enough troops and equipment to make the transition to peace; the devastation caused by IEDs; being deployed to Iraq when their homes have been ravaged by hurricanes; being on their second or third deployment and leaving their families behind without a network of support.

The threat posed by terrorism is real, but we have other threats that cannot be ignored. We must be prepared to face all threats. The future of our military is at risk. Our military and their families are stretched thin. Many say that the Army is broken. Some of our troops are on their third deployment. Recruitment is down, even as our military has lowered its standards. Defense budgets are being cut. Personnel costs are skyrocketing, particularly in health care. Choices will have to be made. We can not allow promises we have made to our military families in terms of service benefits, in terms of their health care, to be negotiated away. Procurement programs that ensure our military dominance cannot be negotiated away. We must be prepared. The war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls at our bases in the U.S.

Much of our ground equipment is worn out and in need of either serious overhaul or replacement. George Washington said, “To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace.” We must rebuild our Army. Our deficit is growing out of control. The Director of the Congressional Budget Office recently admitted to being “terrified” about the budget deficit in the coming decades. This is the first prolonged war we have fought with three years of tax cuts, without full mobilization of American industry and without a draft. The burden of this war has not been shared equally; the military and their families are shouldering this burden.

Our military has been fighting a war in Iraq for over two and a half years. Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty. Our military captured Saddam Hussein, and captured or killed his closest associates. But the war continues to intensify. Deaths and injuries are growing, with over 2,079 confirmed American deaths. Over 15,500 have been seriously injured and it is estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from battle fatigue. There have been reports of at least 30,000 Iraqi civilian deaths.

I just recently visited Anbar Province Iraq in order to assess the conditions on the ground. Last May 2005, as part of the Emergency Supplemental Spending Bill, the House included the Moran Amendment, which was accepted in Conference, and which required the Secretary of Defense to submit quarterly reports to Congress in order to more accurately measure stability and security in Iraq. We have now received two reports. I am disturbed by the findings in key indicator areas. Oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels. Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by the security situation. Only $9 billion of the $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. Unemployment remains at about 60 percent. Clean water is scarce. Only $500 million of the $2.2 billion appropriated for water projects has been spent. And most importantly, insurgent incidents have increased from about 150 per week to over 700 in the last year. Instead of attacks going down over time and with the addition of more troops, attacks have grown dramatically. Since the revelations at Abu Ghraib, American casualties have doubled. An annual State Department report in 2004 indicated a sharp increase in global terrorism.

I said over a year ago, and now the military and the Administration agrees, Iraq can not be won “militarily.” I said two years ago, the key to progress in Iraq is to Iraqitize, Internationalize and Energize. I believe the same today. But I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress.

Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence. U.S. troops are the common enemy of the Sunnis, Saddamists and foreign jihadists. I believe with a U.S. troop redeployment, the Iraqi security forces will be incentivized to take control. A poll recently conducted shows that over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, and about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified. I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis.

I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid December, the Iraqi people and the emerging government must be put on notice that the United States will immediately redeploy. All of Iraq must know that Iraq is free. Free from United States occupation. I believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process for the good of a “free” Iraq.

My plan calls:

To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.

To create a quick reaction force in the region.

To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.

To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

This war needs to be personalized. As I said before I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering.

Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our OBLIGATION to speak out for them. That’s why I am speaking out.

Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It is time to bring them home.

----------------------------------------

This guy has my attention for 2 reasons.. his qualifications and his record.

He's an unimpeachable witness to the policy and practice of armed conflict. He's also an unimpeachable witness to the policy and practice of politics. He's an enigma.. an honest politician. Before he was a politician he was a Marine Officer.. who better to interpet the actual situation on the ground in Iraq. If this guy sez our military mission is in deep deep doggie doo I'm far more likely to take his view as accurate than Rumsfeld's  or Cheney's.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Monk

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2005, 03:59:32 AM »
I have to agree.  We travel down to Ramstein often and it rips your heart out.  I've gone into Iraq many times since this crap has started and I have to tell ya, it's time to bring these guys home.  Troops are pulling 3-4 tours in Iraq per enlistment - how many vets on this board have done that?  Not me.

Offline Rolex

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2005, 04:45:42 AM »
I agree with your opinion about this guy, Hangtime.

I keep returning to thought that Colin Powell was right. He tried vigorously to get Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld to justify the invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but became so frustrated at their agendas and convoluted thinking that he ended up saying to Cheney, "What are you, nuts?"

After the die was cast for invasion, he confronted them again about the dangers of not having an overwhelming force prepared to maintain stability and control after invasion. He vigorously opposed Rumsfeld's lean force plan.

If you put aside all the questions about the legitimacy of the invasion (from a common sense view, not 'legal' view) and just give them a 'pass' on it, you're still left with an incompetent prosecution of the action.

They've made a pig's breakfast of the whole thing. Not the military, the inept policymakers at the very top. It's bad policy, executed incompetently by people unfit for the offices.

I'm convinced history will not be kind to the Bush presidency. Richard Nixon must be smiling, wherever he is. I didn't like or trust Clinton during his terms, but his legacy is looking far better in retrospect than Bush's legacy is looking now.

Offline Hangtime

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2005, 09:51:44 AM »
Frankly, I'd like Truman and Eisenhower back, please.

*sigh*

Eye-opening Factoid. The reconstituted Iraqi Army serves 3 weeks on, gets one week at home.

Bzzzzzzzzrrrrrrrtttttt.

Wrong Policy. Our kids are Targets. I've played that game. Personally. It truly sucks.

I support our troops on overseas deployment in harms way. I always have. I always will. There's no conditions to that support.

It's past time to bring 'em home.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline oboe

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2005, 10:06:28 AM »
Thank you for this thread, and your opinions.   I feel like I can breathe again.    I took a wrong turn at Yeager's thread and wound up in East St Louis, I think.   I knew I was right but just don't have the credibility you guys have.

I think I'd follow Murtha to Timbuktu, but wouldn't venture past my driveway behind Bush or Cheney.

Offline Dago

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2005, 10:16:18 AM »
I was impressed by Murthas speeches, but why did he vote against the very thing he has been demanding?
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Offline oboe

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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2005, 10:21:38 AM »
They weren't voting on what he had suggested, specifically.   Compare the text of the resolution with Murtha's proposals and you'll se what a prank the House vote was.

Offline JBA

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2005, 10:40:20 AM »
Deleted.

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 11:05:10 AM by MP8 »
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Offline Hangtime

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2005, 11:13:59 AM »
We've seen politicans play politics with soldiers lives before. This is not a good situtation. Not at all. This is a sickening situation, getting worse every day. I'm no expert on the conditions over there.. I'm not a qualifed umpire in this game... I doubt any civilan soccer mom or family man is. I am however confident that Murtha is a heluva lot more qualified to call the game than the Administration is.

There is NO stopping the groundswell of indignation and protest that is arising in the general population here for this war, for whatever reasons what we Vietnam Vets predicted is coming to pass.. the insurgents will be bolstered by the anti-war sentiment here and will redouble their efforts to drive the death toll up. We have seen this exact pattern before.

The indigent population's factions are united in one regard only.. the Americans are Targets. Seen this before too. A minority indigent Pro-US faction cannot protect the flanks of an increasingly vulnerable US Occupation Force.

Time to go. Lets insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Yeager

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2005, 11:55:44 AM »
Time to go. Lets insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out.
====
well hangtime, which is it?

Is it "Time to go?"

or is it "time to insure their new elections, tell 'em to get their house in order, then pack up our **** and get the hell out."

Because both can not be done now?

And as soon as we tell the people that are killing our soldiers what our  plans for withdrawl are then we have failed.

The administration says we need to keep our soldiers in country until enough of the iraqi military can stand on its own.  That time is coming, I hope it is...but to do what you and murtha appear to want so badly is a diagnosis of wussification, its sad and pathetic.  

Everyone knows that huge mistakes have been made, hell...the people running the show said as much at the start of the war.  Bad things that we cant even imagine will happen in war but without the resolve to win nothing is possible and we resolve to win.  

Well most of us have resolve...ooh wait...something bad just happened.....some of us remain resolved....ooh wait....something we didnt think about just happened and it sucks.....well, a few of us are still resolved....oh here comes murtha...a demorat....a politician in the minority party sensing weakness on his opposing party!  Nows the time to retreat!  we have done all we can!  the vice president is the vice torturer!  

get real...
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Offline lasersailor184

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2005, 11:58:04 AM »
Currently, using diplomatic means also constitutes diplomacy with those *******s who we kicked out in the first place.


And I'll be the first to say, "**** THAT!"
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2005, 11:58:39 AM »
You know, I've been on the fence on Iraq.  Myself, not being a Vet (choose Edumacation instead), I sometimes feel that it is "not my place to talk".  My Grandpa (deceased in 98) was a Marine (43-46) and my Pop was Army (60-63).  

I'll ALWAYS still support the troops.  They do the dirty work I suppose, while the politician's fumble about with grandstanding, etc.  My pop has consistantly told me we never should have gone into Iraq, he agreed with Afghanistan, but not Iraq.  

I was bitter about the "murtha uprising" because I thought "here we go with the politician's grandstanding."   But no, I as a Non-Vet, believe it's time to pack our bags and let Iraq see if they can stand on their hind legs and fight back.   We removed Saddam from power and that was the objective.  


Hangtime, great post.  

Karaya

PS - I'm sorry if my post pisses anyone off, it's not meant too.
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2005, 12:25:32 PM »
I dont think it was a great post.  Its a post supporting, calling for retreat.  Here we go again.....
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Offline Maverick

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2005, 12:57:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Frankly, I'd like Truman and Eisenhower back, please.



I'd like to just add a bit here Hang. If you recall, or just look it up, I think you'll find that Eisenhower was the first to start us into the 'Nam slide. At the time he wanted to start sending aid and later advisors (not many but he did send some) he was told by the Joint Chiefs of Staff that we had no strategic interests in the area and did not belong there. He over rode their concern (his prerogitive ac CIC) and we went in anyhow.

I got this from On Strategy and Tactics (there was more to the title but after almost 20 years I can't recall it all) I believe by SLA Marshal. It was on the reading list for Command and General Staff College. The instructor we had at the time was my former Bn. Commander. He was so impressed with it that he paid out of his pocket to rent the volume on tape for his 15 students that phase of C&GS.

Another point in the course I recall was an interview with Gen. Giap. The crux of it was that he was told "You know you never beat us on the battlefield" He replied, "That is correct, it is also irrelevent."

It seems that the best weapon for any one contemplating conflict with the US is the media IN the US.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Murtha.. what did he just say?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2005, 02:05:55 PM »
From what I saw of him speak I think Mr Murtha sincirely cares about the young troops who are getting killed there every day and would want that to stop.