Murtha.. what did he just say?

[Hangtime]

Yeag no apology required on my behalf. With regards to your question... I dunno. I was a glorified heavy equipment specialist. My only war time qualification was being lucky enuff to survive with just a spare hole in my bellybutton that happily qualified me for a ticket the hell home 4 months early. Does that make me a General Staff War College dude?

FWIW, to me it looks like another asymmetric guerilla war. The history buff in me is convinced we can't win on their terrain with a conventional occupation force. We will again win every fixed piece battle. And we will again be fighting a war of attrition, unable to reach out and hit the guys where they get their groceries and grenades. If we stay, we ain’t gonna win unless we go to a full forces, full theatre commitment now.

A wet behind the ears Lieutenant could figure that one out.

Now, do we as a nation have the resolve and the resources to engage the conventional forces of nations that are funneling men, material and supplies into Iraq? We ready to open an all-out can of whup-ass on Syria and Iran? We ready to fight the Last Crusade, now? That’s what they see it as, what they train their kids to see, what the Mothers of their Kids see. With every fibre of their being and with a passion that can hardly be believed those people are gonna do every single thing they can to kill our kids as gruesomely as possible as often as possible.

We need to Win, and WIN BIG, or we may as well get the hell out now. You see that kinda commitment from the administration? Are the political soccer moms and Hollywood idiots willing to bring back the draft, build up our conventional army to WWII levels and give this war the material and logistical support our kids need to win? As it stands now, the way we’re fighting this now, looks like it’s an unwinnable war against a dedicated indigent population getting massive outside support and supply from Syria and Iran. Can we defeat, occupy & rebuild, and then install democratic governments in those nations when we're done with what we have committed now? Think we can swing 2, maybe three or more Iraq's? How we doin so far? If not, it’s time to tell the Iraqi’s to pick up the burden now, cause we can’t do this without them doing the lions share of the logistics and fighting.

We've now discovered the hard way that Iraq is not post-WWII Germany. This ain't Europe. Who among us here have solutions to the Islamic reaction to what they see as ‘Crusaders’? To them this is holy war. Every one we kill seems to create 3 more dedicated fighters.

They will NOT give up till each and every single 'Crusader' on their 'territory' is dead. period. Just like we wouldn't roll over at this point if there was an occupation army of Moslems in the United States.

Look, if the administration could solve this thing with what we have available right now it'd be over already, wouldn't it? What have we got that we ain't used.. and what would we gain by using it?

What's it gonna take to get this over with? And are we willing to do it?

I’m not about to pull my support for the troops back even a tiny bit.. if we’re in it, we’re in it for keeps. No more half bellybutton measures. Kick ass. Full out. The Draft, Wartime Rationing, massive economic concessions, Wartime Manufacturing and Economy... This is it, the big one… Global War. The whole nine yards, the big enchilada. If  we’re gonna fight this thing, then lets get it done; full out, no dickin around like Korea or Vietnam with the gooks hiding in Laos, Cambdia and us not able to invade across the DMZ. The full can of whup ass, or bring the boys home to build the walls now cause I’m not at all happy with the idea of sending the kids over there without a full commitment from here to get it done right.

It ain’t me yah gotta convince this war is Just.. sell the ****in liberals, the soccer moms and the poltiticians that seem to think they can play politics with the lives of our kids for ‘measured’ results. Let’s get with the Jihadists program and meet it with the total commitment and ferocity it’ll take to stamp it out or get the boys home.

My last .02 cents.

and god bless the Troops.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Yeager
hangtime.  islam will aquire a nuclear weapons arsenal if we give them time.

whats your ultra brillaint post hippe vietnam vet response?

 nash, your a certified waste of time.....nice guy and all......

Pakistan already has nukes.   please, try to do a bit of self education before lashing out with the childish name calling.

[Mighty1]

Sorry I take it as a cut- n- run request.

[BigGun]

Originally posted by Rolex
......Colin Powell was right. He tried vigorously to get Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld to justify the invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but became so frustrated at their agendas and convoluted thinking that he ended up saying to Cheney, "What are you, nuts?"
 

Wasn't he the one that made the case before the UN for the invasion? If that statement is true & that is how he felt, then he had no business making that argument to the UN. If he did, the low morals at best. Either Powells morals are questionalbe or the statement is.

[cpxxx]

As I said in another thread, The problem is that there can be no precipate withdrawal from Iraq unless the situation is resolved. Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda drew strength from the American withdrawal from Somalia. He said so himself.  The 'kick ass' version won't work either. It can't win because like all assymetric wars you really don't know who the terrorists are.
Iraq did not work out the way it was intended, no one anticipated a highly organised and well funded guerrila and terrorist campaign by Saddam's Baathist thugs allied with the shock troops of the Al Qaeda's suicide monkeys.
 
If America pulls out they lose the first real battle in the 'war on terror'. A victory for the terrorists. But to stay means years of casualties and constant service in Iraq for the troops. I'm beginning to think it's an illusion that the nascent Iraqi military and police can ever face up to this. Remember what happened to the ARVN in '75.

Frankly I don't think Bush will bite the bullet on this one. It will be left to his successor whoever he is. Republican or Democrat. And he will be Democrat if it is not resolved by then.

[Goth]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
You know, I've been on the fence on Iraq.  Myself, not being a Vet (choose Edumacation instead), I sometimes feel that it is "not my place to talk".  My Grandpa (deceased in 98) was a Marine (43-46) and my Pop was Army (60-63).  

I'll ALWAYS still support the troops.  They do the dirty work I suppose, while the politician's fumble about with grandstanding, etc.  My pop has consistantly told me we never should have gone into Iraq, he agreed with Afghanistan, but not Iraq.  

I was bitter about the "murtha uprising" because I thought "here we go with the politician's grandstanding."   But no, I as a Non-Vet, believe it's time to pack our bags and let Iraq see if they can stand on their hind legs and fight back.   We removed Saddam from power and that was the objective.  


Hangtime, great post.  

Karaya

PS - I'm sorry if my post pisses anyone off, it's not meant too.

I did serve Karaya, so if that qualifies as a say so then here goes. You're an American citizen, and by rights you DO have a say in things, that is why I served almost half my life.

Hangtime, gotta disagree with you on the hearts and minds issue. We here in America have only been getting the bad news and such. Since I still work for the military department I hear differently. I hear about all the good things going on and the peoples appreciation.

Look at what happened with the Jordanian bombing just last week. The muslim and arab world are crying out against Zarq....whatever his name is, and he's backpedaling. His own family issued adds in the Jordanian papers condemning him and severing all ties.

Yeah, I've seen some of our boys do 2 or 3 rotations. They don't like it, but they do it because they know it's right.

And while we're at it, it may be the sons of congressmen doing the dirty work, but I know a lot of soldiers that would not agree with pulling out right now. If they're old enough to serve they have a voice in government, it would be interesting to see how the boots on the ground would vote on a pullout agenda.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Yeager
I dont think it was a great post.  Its a post supporting, calling for retreat.  Here we go again.....

It's not a retreat if we declare victory and then go home.

[Gunthr]

Seriously, we need to be in Iraq for a while longer, maybe longer than some may prefer.   I understand that there is considerable heat on all representatives because of #1: Upcoming US elections and  #2 Intense pressure from "progressives" who believe that they own the truth.

Doctor Doh, and Gnash, give up the idea that  you have the moral upper ground without much more exlpanation.  I don't think you understand much beyond your localities, or beyond your own life experiences.

[Rolex]

Hi BigGun...

Powell has always been a loyal soldier and patriot. Discussing and making his opinions known, based on his experience, was his job, but when the president makes a decision to do X, Powell always did X to best of his ability - as a young lieutenant, through Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, to Secretary of State. It was Powell who wanted the chance to make one last case before the UN, using the best intelligence available.

He spent days at the pentagon preparing the best case he could before the UN, based on the information he was given, and the assurances of the veracity of the information.

He has since regretted that presentation before the UN. Not because of any personal embarrassment, but because of the veracity of the information he was given, the blow to the credibility of the intelligence community, and the US credibility as a whole.

I don't think that is low morals. I'm curious what you think he should have done at that point in time?

[Gunthr]

Hangtime, it is hard to disagree with you.  Your pain is very evident.  Still, I disagree with you because Iraq is not Vietnam.  This is WWW III.  

(just so you can judge me, I enlisted in the Army in 1967, in time for Tet, with my brother, from a family of ten, for the college money.   I was 20, my bro was 18.  My knee blew out and I remember saluting my brother as he went on to Vietnam.  I'm so proud of him.  He got malaria, shrapnel, engaged the enemy in firefights, did his duty and came home at 19 years old,skinny as a stringbing, with a stomach ulcer from the fear, and it took me a couple years to know him again.)

I just want you to think it over...

[Hangtime]

Bingo. It IS WWIII.. and the sooner we drop the gloves and get with the Jihast program the sooner it'll be over.

Here's some factoids..

The borders are porous, Iran and Syria are funneling material and personel into Iraq. We don't have the numbers to stop it.

The Iraq 'military' serves 3 weeks, then goes home for a week.

There are three significant power bases/political groups and a terrosist group in Iraq. 3 out of the 4 agree completely that the US troops are valid targets, whereas those same three groups cannot stand each other, kill each other and regard themselves as the legitimate inheritors of power in Iraq, they are now working together to kill Americans. The only power base/political group that considers the US a benfactor is the Kurds. NE Iraq is a US stronghold. The resta the place looks like Vietnam in a 50 year drought.

Unless we can force in the strongest possible terms Iraqi self-defense onto the Iraqi's, they're just gonna sit back and let us do the brunt of the fighting. I get no sense of 'serious' attempts at self defense from ANY of the Iraqi military. One week off outta 4? WTF is THAT crap??!!

This is unacceptable.. feeding our kids into that damn meat grinder one body part at a time is no way to fight this damn war.. who here as EVER seen this kinda fighting succeed, anywhere, at any time?

Either we go full court press and escalate this War into a Theatre Operation against all the Nations that are supplying and supporting the Insurgency or we just get the hell out now because turning our kids into arcade targets for an increasingly effective insurgent force is NOT something I can get behind..

Seen it before. Lived it. It's happening again.

[Bodhi]

It's so nice that all the arm chair generals have shown up for this wonderful discussion, including Murtha by quote.  

I think the only way this is going to end is by the major actions (with minor actions of another) of one command, and I'll give you one guess as to what command that is.

[Bodhi]

Oh, and btw, we are about one attack in the US by, nondescript Muslim males between the ages of 17 - 45, from a new crusade.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by oboe
Thank you for this thread, and your opinions.   I feel like I can breathe again.    I took a wrong turn at Yeager's thread and wound up in East St Louis, I think.   I knew I was right but just don't have the credibility you guys have.

I think I'd follow Murtha to Timbuktu, but wouldn't venture past my driveway behind Bush or Cheney.

Oboe.
Your a citizen and a tax payer. Your as qualified as anyone to state your opinon. Your also just as credible as anyone. A thread where most of the people agree with you doesn't mean your right. Just like the fact I dissagree with you doesn't make me right. I've never been to East St Louis so I have no idea what that means.

 Murtha has some good ideas. I don't know if it's the answer. We've made commitments to the people of Iraq. I know he stated having a rapid reaction force, and Marines just over the horizon. You can almost bet that the wackos will be out killing as many people that voted in the Iraqi elections that they can get their hands on. If we leave too soon.

Events since the hotel bombings in Jordon seem to point to the fact that maybe the AQ isn't as popular as everybody lets on.  Staying the course a little longer may pay off. The again maybe it won't.

I think the point that I don't like the war in Iraq got lost in East St Louis somewhere.

I want them home too. I'm one lucky man that I got both sons back in one piece, more or less. I don't agree with the politics of bashing a sitting American President during a time of war.  Any President. I don't care who is President. Screaming  Bush lied and we need to get out now is not going to help the troops on the ground. It will just make their lives that much more difficult. It's not just voters that watch this stuff. It goes all over the world. The people our troops are fighting see this stuff too.

 I'm not saying Bush should be given carte blanche. I am saying  all of congress should be working on winning , or finishing this thing together, with the President. To dissagree with him isn't the problem. To cut him off at the legs everytime a TV camera is present is. These are educated people surely they can find a way to get their point across without all the trash. If they have an idea to make this situation better for the country, and the troops. Then it should merit serious presentation. Not theatrical Bush bashing. It would grow legs a hell of a lot quicker if it was presented in a sound and serious manner.

I don't speak for all military parents. I can only speak for myself. Everytime I see a Democrat calling Bush a liar , and saying our troops are tortureing , and killing the innocent . I get enraged , and vow never to support any Democrat ever. Theres parents of military men and women all over the country hearing this everyday. While their loved are over in Iraq, or Afghanistan. It's a damn shame they have to listen to it, it's hard enough worrying about if your loved ons are okay. Imagine how it makes the troops feel .

I've heard so many say this is Bush's War. I got news for you. Bush isn't over there fighting it. Nor are his children. It's the average American's kids and loved one fighting in the Mid East. It's our war, and our childrens war. They deserve better than they've been getting from both Republicans, Democrats, and we Americans who bash each other over the BBS.

 So Terry I apologize for the way I went after you last week. I also need to do a better job of putting forth my ideas.

I'd just like everyone to remember one thing...................

Bush is three more years. Every Soldier, or Marine, we lose is forever.

[Yeager]

hangtime, I support the pre-emptive use of atomics against the rougue nations north korea, iran and syria, oh...and certain mountainous regions of afganistan and pakistan.  I know this concept will insult the tellie tubbies of the world but oh well.......

If we go another 5-10 years without taking the small punk nations down very very soon they will supply the atomic weapons to OBL and his ilk of camel farmers that will vaporize Wash DC as soon as they can.  then it will be too late to save the world.