Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.

[agent 009]

Germans were not so impressed with P-39, P-40, & P-38. 47 a bit more perhaps. But what if Corsair & Hellcat had appeared in med 43 instead of P-38 & P-39?

[SMIDSY]

p-47 was the best american fighter of the war IMHO.

[Guppy35]

Man is that a loaded question.

It didn't happen so it's tough to speculate too far.  I'm guessing those Germans that fell to 38s, 39s, 40s and Jugs probably were a bit more impressed then the propaganda machine.

Last I checked the 38 groups operating in the MTO scored well, on par with any other groups operating in the MTO or ETO.

[agent 009]

Buhligen said 47 weighed too much & there were certain maneuvers it just couldn't do, ( source The Aces Talk by Ed Simms ).

 Blakselee was very exited about switching from 47 to Mustang as it flew so much better said he.

Buhligen also mentioned when a 47 got on his tail, he would shoot straight up into a loop, & 47 couldn't follow & he would get on 47's tail.

Bar said an encounter with a P-38 was pretty much a sure kill.

Buhligen said 38 was easy to burn. he had 13 in his total.


Eric Brown said; I have no doubt whatsoever, a Corsair could not beat a 190 in combat. He had lesser opinion of 109.

I think that German respect for US planes would go up. Sakai said Hellcat was only plane that could follow Zero through "any" maneuver.

Hellcat & Corsair certainly better than P-40 & P-39.

[Guppy35]

The Aces talk.

That's the key.  The message the first post implied was the Germans thought.  Now we're to the aces  Robert Johnson, Gabreski, etc didn't do too bad in Jugs.

Blakeslee started out in Spits then went to early Jugs then 51s.  The 51 felt more like a Spit.  The transition from Spit V to Jug was a big one and the Merlin guys didn't like it.  Guys trained on Jugs didn't mind it at all.

38 drivers, trained on 38s didn't want Mustangs.  They didn't want to do the transition to "spam cans" as it was put.

Bottom line is the Germans and the LW were driven from North Africa, Sicily, up the boot of Italy and lost.  And it was done with the planes that were available.

A few of us old AW types count as a friend an old MTO 39 and Jug driver who flew 39s in the MTO until August 44 and then finished out in Jugs.  Silver Star, DFC etc.  He liked  39s and Jugs.  They also had some 38Gs early on for chasing high alt recce birds.  He liked those too.  Earl flew AW with us for a time and was always willing to share is stories.  Still does as a matter of fact.  And a few of us have had the pleasure of meeting him too.

[Squire]

This the same Blakeslee that was supposedly quoting as dissing the P-51 in the other post?

As for the P-38 it was a far more effective fighter in general, than the P-40 or the P-39, the performance stats and FG records clearly show that. There is a reason it flew with the 8th and 9th AF and neither the P-40 nor P-39 ever did.

Fine manuever vs the P-47 (Buhligen) assuming you see it in time, otherwise your ashes, which is how most combats were fought, quick and over within a few minutes, or seconds:

The Corsair downed more than its share of Ki-84s and N1K2s in WW2, so I dont see why a less manueverable Fw190 would be such a tough nut? What makes the P-47D say, be able to shoot one down but not a Corsair?

WW2 air combat was not about 1 vs 1 duels. It was about ambush and killing quickly, using team tactics and the advantage of position, most times. Flying a fighter with high performance was by no means a guarantee of never being bounced, or hit by an opposing fighter you didnt see untill it was too late, which is the kind of circumstance that felled most of those who were shot down. Evasive manuevers only work if you saw him in time

Anecdotal quotes are interesting, but they say very little about the daily realities of the campaigns average airmen fought in, and too many people quote top aces (on both sides) as hard "proof" of something.  

As for the original question, I agree, there is no question both the F6F and the Corsair in particular, would have been better fighters than the P-40 or the P-39, as they were in the Pacific. How much better I guess we will never know.

[Crumpp]

The Corsair downed more than its share of Ki-84s and N1K2s in WW2, so I dont see why a less manueverable Fw190 would be such a tough nut?

And what do you base that opinion on?

The USN test of a crashed FW-190 with badly out of adjustment ailerons and a knocking motor that could not even reach rated altitude or be brought to idle without stalling?

Here is what the RAE had to say about that test's conclusions the Corsair rolled as well as the Focke Wulf:
 

Facts are it would depend very much on which Focke Wulf and which Corsair we are discussing.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Debonair]

Originally posted by Guppy35
The Aces talk.

That's the key.  The message the first post implied was the Germans thought.  Now we're to the aces  Robert Johnson, Gabreski, etc didn't do too bad in Jugs.

Blakeslee started out in Spits then went to early Jugs then 51s.  The 51 felt more like a Spit.  The transition from Spit V to Jug was a big one and the Merlin guys didn't like it.  Guys trained on Jugs didn't mind it at all.

38 drivers, trained on 38s didn't want Mustangs.  They didn't want to do the transition to "spam cans" as it was put.

Bottom line is the Germans and the LW were driven from North Africa, Sicily, up the boot of Italy and lost.  And it was done with the planes that were available.

A few of us old AW types count as a friend an old MTO 39 and Jug driver who flew 39s in the MTO until August 44 and then finished out in Jugs.  Silver Star, DFC etc.  He liked  39s and Jugs.  They also had some 38Gs early on for chasing high alt recce birds.  He liked those too.  Earl flew AW with us for a time and was always willing to share is stories.  Still does as a matter of fact.  And a few of us have had the pleasure of meeting him too.

How good was the real combat pilot in the virtual air combat world?
...Didn't the RN Fleet Air Arm use some Corsairs & Hellcats in Europe?

[Squire]

So what, that makes the Fw190 bulletproof, even if I buy into your claim it was a porked model they tested?

Spit IX couldnt out roll a Fw190 either, I do recall they shot a few down though.

Some reason a Corsair couldnt do it? was it the blue paint?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Debonair
How good was the real combat pilot in the virtual air combat world?
...Didn't the RN Fleet Air Arm use some Corsairs & Hellcats in Europe?

Hellcats had a winning record in Europe. What most people don't realize is that USN and RN Hellcats were primary over-the-beach fighter cover for Operation Dragoon, the invasion of southern France. They managed to shoot down eight Luftwaffe aircraft. They also pounded German forces behind the beaches inland as far as 75 miles. Along with the USS Tulagi and the USS Kasaan Bay, the Royal Navy's HMS Emperor operated its Hellcats. During the 13 days the F6Fs operated over France, 11 USN and 3 RN Hellcats were lost, all to triple A. However, they did tremendous damage. 825 vehicles, including tanks, assault guns, personnel carriers, and trucks were destroyed. 334 more suffered damage. 84 locomotives were destroyed, along with over 450 railroad cars. Five bridges were knocked down and most land-line communications were cut. An estimated 3,300 German troops were killed.

A total of 71 Hellcats operated During Dragoon, flying a total of 697 sorties over 13 days. They were supported by 52 Wildcats and 97 Seafires.

In addition, operating off of Norway, Hellcat pilots of 800 squadron engaged a large gaggle of German fighters, killing 2 Bf 109s and one Fw 190 for two losses. Two He 115s were destroyed by 804 squadron.

My regards,

Widewing

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Squire
The Corsair downed more than its share of Ki-84s and N1K2s in WW2, so I dont see why a less manueverable Fw190 would be such a tough nut? What makes the P-47D say, be able to shoot one down but not a Corsair?

You realize only 415 N1K2-J production examples were produced right?
BTW, the Hellcat shot more planes down than the Corsair.

Corsair - 2,139 kills
Hellcat - 5,216 kills (as well as a documented 95% maintenance free rate).  

Karaya

[Debonair]

Thank you, Widewing

[Squire]

It was mainly a case of #s used, more F6Fs saw more action than Corsairs did, and the two types remain hotly debated, just as the P-47, P-38 and P-51 are.

As I posted in another thread, the F6F was the top ace-maker of the USA in WW2.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Debonair
How good was the real combat pilot in the virtual air combat world?
...Didn't the RN Fleet Air Arm use some Corsairs & Hellcats in Europe?

I asked him one time and he just sort of laughed.  He never took it too seriously and didn't see it as much more then the game it was.  He had the most fun taking TBFs out and torpedoing carriers.

We designed a scenario in Airwarrior with him in mind and had his squadron in it.  As you can imagine there were lots of guys wanting to fly with him.  He's in his 80s now but still gets up in a Cessna 152 now and then.

He was a career guy and flew a bunch of A1 Skyraider missions in Vietnam advising the South Vietnamese early in that war.  He had over 200 combat missions in WW2.  All ground attack stuff.

[Angus]

The RN had F4F's then later Corsairs and they were used in combat.
Hellcats clashed with 109's twice I belive both times mauling them. Guess it was a good bounce. Well, Widewing knows more here