Author Topic: Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.  (Read 3372 times)

Offline Squire

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Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2005, 10:28:02 AM »
Im not going to say anything bad about the Fw190 because there isnt much to say bad about it, quite frankly, it has to be in any serious "top WW2 fighter list" I have no doubt. but I will make a few observations about how they all stack up to each other.  

There is a place where all the WW2 fighter do battle with each other. Its called the Main Arena.

In reading BBS and "Ch.100 complaints" about this place I have noticed some trends regarding the # of complaint-whines-requests-whatever about some fighters.

Seems to me that between the LW, RAF, VVS, Japanese and US types that fly, the the RAF fighters get the most "heat" Spitfire V, Spitfire IX, Spitfire XIV, Tempest. Followed closely by the LA-7, N1K2, Ki-84 and F4U-4, or at least, somewhere in there...

"Perk the 190A-5", "Perk the 109A-8", "Perk the 190D-9", well, we dont ever hear that very often, at least I don't.

So for it to be undoubtably the "most manueverable" fighter of WW2, as some have clalimed, well, I find that curious.

...and the Spit series, as always, generates easily the most complaints. :)

Don't come apart at the seams, im only 1/2 serious (oh hell maybe 3/4),  but I find it interesting none the less, in a non scientific way sort of "muahahaha" way.

Ltr.  :D
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2005, 10:51:05 AM »
Your absolutely right Squire.

Many of the LW flyers have more success dogfighting a Bf-110 than they do the FW-190 in Ace High.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Squire

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« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2005, 11:55:51 AM »
"Perk the Bf 110!".

"The Bf 110 doesnt bleed E!"

Hmm, nope, dont recall that one either come to think of it...

Let me know when you get to the 109s. ;)
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Offline agent 009

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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2005, 12:39:47 PM »
From Bozon...
"Super uber roll rate will gain you nothing if the other plane can roll half decently. 190s had also other thing going for them (firpower, speed, zoom) when roll-rate became insignificant. They were not that one dimentional."

Well, Eric Brown felt differently. He said if not for the superb roll rate of the Dora, He would give the Spit 14 the nod without hesitation as best  prop job of ww2. But as it is, it is almost equal.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2005, 12:40:17 PM »
I didn't read the whole thread but I have researched F6Fs / F4Us (F4Fs and FM2s) in Europe for another game. Here's some quick information from my old notes, (This may not be complete but I don't feel like digging through my old disks to find the stuff):

The only action USN F6Fs saw over 'Europe' was during the invasion of southern France in Aug '44.

USS Tulagi - VOF-1 (Lieut. Comdr. WF Bringle, USN)
USS Kasaan Bay embarking VF-74 (Lieut. Comdr. HB Bass, USN)

Both squadrons flew F6F-5s and provided cover for the landings.

VF-74 also operated a 7-plane F6F-3N night fighter detachment from Ajaccio on the island of Corsica. On 15 Aug VF-74 flew 60 sorties, VOF-1, 40 sorties, all ground support missions.

On the morning of 19 Aug  three He-111's were spotted by a four-plane division of VOF-1 pilots. The Amis were too short on fuel and could not attack. Two of the Amis were forced to land on HMS Emperor due to their lack of fuel.

Later that day two He-111's were claimed by VOF-1 near the village of Vienne. Lieut. Poucel and Ens. Wood teamed up to claim one.  Ens. Robinson claimed the second. Some time later in the same area a third He-111 was claimed by Ens. Wood. That same morning VF-74 led by Lieut. Comdr. Bass claimed a Ju-88 and in the afternoon 2 other pilots (ieut. (j.g.) Castanedo and Ens. Hullard) claimed a Do-217 (shared).

On 21 August,  VOF-1 claimed three Ju-52 transports north of Marseille. Two were credited to Lieut. (j.g.) Olszewski; one went to Ens. Yenter. Operating for two weeks in support of the invasion, these two squadrons claimed and were credited with destroying 825 trucks and vehicles, damaging 334 more and destroying or otherwise immobilizing 84 locomotives.

Both USN squadrons lost some 17 aircraft, all were to ground fire or operational accidents. None were claimed by German aircraft. Among the 7 pilots lost (2 from VOF-1 and 5 from VF-74) was the CO of VF-74, Lieut. Comdr. H. Brinkley Bass, awarded 2 Navy Crosses from early actions in the Pacific, killed by antiaircraft fire while strafing near Chamelet on 20 August.

The only fighter-to-fighter FAA F6F action took place in May 1944. On 8 May, F6F's from the Fleet Air Arm's:

No. 800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SJ Hall, DSC, RN),

off HMS Emperor, while escorting a flight of Barracudas was attacked by a mixed group of Me-109's and FW-190's. Two F6F's were lost, one, reportedly, to anti-aircraft fire. The F6F pilots claimed 2 Me-109's and one FW-190. The FW-190 was claimed by Sub-Lieut. Ritchie. The LW show no 190s lost on this day, in this area.

On 14 May, 800 Squadron's leading scorer, Sub-Lieut. Ritchie (now with 4.5 victories) claimed a He-115 to his tally and claimed a share of another He-115 with the CO of 804 Squadron, Lieut. Comdr. Orr, giving him a total of 6 'victories' for the war.

Prior to these actions, FAA F6F's were used for anti-aircraft suppression on raids against Tirpitz on 3 April 44 (Operation Tungsten). These included - from Emperor -

800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. Hall)
804 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SG Orr, DSC, RNVR).

FAA F4U's also participated in Operation Tungsten.

1834 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. PN Charlton, DFC, RN)
1836 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. CC Tomkinson, RNVR)

Both off HMS Victorious flying top cover

Flying top cover for Operation Mascot:

1841 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. RL Bigg-Wither, DCS & bar, RN)

off HMS Formidable

1841 Squadron was joined by 1842 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. AMcD Garland, RN) in Operation Goodwood in late August. No contact was made with any German aircraft and no FAA F4Us ever made contact with German aircraft.

By summer of 1944, FAA F4U's were largely operating in the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

USN F6F pilots's claimed and were credited with bringing down 8 enemy aircraft, 3 He-111; 3 Ju-52; and 1 each Ju-88 and Do-217 with no air combat losses. (11 losses to all causes).

The FAA F6F pilots were credited with bringing down 5 aircraft to 1 air combat loss (2 to all causes) 2 He-115; 2 Me-109G; and 1 FW-190.

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2005, 01:01:24 PM »
The RAF tactical trail between a captured Fw-190A (I don't know which one, presumably Faber's) and a Spit IX explicitly states: 'The Fw-190 is more maneuverable than the Spitfire, except for turning circles'. Especially the reversal turn is noted as very hard for the Spit to follow.

The report is in one of my books but I have seen it here many times. It is no secret. Crumpp probably has the link.

Historical data suggests that the 190 is a good matchup for a Spit IX, in this game this is simply not so. The 190's are dogs. I think that's a pity. Flying 109's is a challenge, but you can have at least some succes. 190's I haven't flown for ages, I'm just not good enough for them. But then again, the Spit XVI makes me feel an ace again ;)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2005, 01:21:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hogenbor
The RAF tactical trail between a captured Fw-190A (I don't know which one, presumably Faber's) and a Spit IX explicitly states: 'The Fw-190 is more maneuverable than the Spitfire, except for turning circles'. Especially the reversal turn is noted as very hard for the Spit to follow.

The report is in one of my books but I have seen it here many times. It is no secret. Crumpp probably has the link.

Historical data suggests that the 190 is a good matchup for a Spit IX, in this game this is simply not so. The 190's are dogs. I think that's a pity. Flying 109's is a challenge, but you can have at least some succes. 190's I haven't flown for ages, I'm just not good enough for them. But then again, the Spit XVI makes me feel an ace again ;)


Seems like we're missing something here.  What type of fight are we talking about the 190 and Spit IX fighting?  If it's a turn fight, then it's going to be the Spits fight.

If the 190 driver flies the 190s fight, the 190 can control it.  

Are the AH 190 flyers saying there is no fight they can win against a Spit IX?  I don't buy it.  Big guns, high speed, hit and run, using the vertical, without making the mistake of getting into a slower turning fight with the better turning Spit.

Flying an XVI down low yesterday I was chasing a 190A5 flat out and I wasn't gaining.  He made the mistake of weaving side to side which let me close the gap.  Had he just kept it going straight ahead, he'd have been fine.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2005, 02:47:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hogenbor
The RAF tactical trail between a captured Fw-190A (I don't know which one, presumably Faber's) and a Spit IX explicitly states: 'The Fw-190 is more maneuverable than the Spitfire, except for turning circles'. Especially the reversal turn is noted as very hard for the Spit to follow.

The report is in one of my books but I have seen it here many times. It is no secret. Crumpp probably has the link.

Historical data suggests that the 190 is a good matchup for a Spit IX, in this game this is simply not so. The 190's are dogs. I think that's a pity. Flying 109's is a challenge, but you can have at least some succes. 190's I haven't flown for ages, I'm just not good enough for them. But then again, the Spit XVI makes me feel an ace again ;)


That was an A-3 vs. Spit Vb @ 12lbs / Spit F.IX @ 15 lbs / Mustang 1a

Farber's A-3 was derated from 1.42 to 1.3 ata. However, the RAF tested it 1.35 ata.

In reference to the VB the Farber test states the FW 'maneuvers better'.

Define 'better' by degree in this context.

In reference to the Spit IX the Farber test states the FW was 'more maneuverable'.

Define 'more' by degree in the context.

In AH the A-5 can easily out roll the Spit V. It out climbs it, dives it. it accelerates better and is faster at all altitudes.

Do you think an A-5 in AH can beat the Spit Vb at 12lbs boost?

That fight isn't even close if the A-5 pilot has half a brain.

In AH the A-5 can easily out roll the Spit F.IX.

However, the Farber report says that there was 'little difference in climb with a slight advantage to F.IX' and 'above 22k ft  the FWs climb rate falls off sharply while the F.IX climb rate increases'. In reference to speed the Farber report shows no more the 8 mph speed advantage to the FW at one altitude band. At all other altitude bands the test show speed virtually equal until 25k where the Spit F.IX gains the advantage.

 Any advantage between to the FW/F.IX would have been quickly made up by the pilot, just like in AH. In fact the Spitfire pilot who took part in the Farber tests said he 'greatly preferred the Spit IX over the 190'.

Using the Farber test as anything other general information is foolish.

You can read the report here.

Goto - Axis Aircraft Tests and look under:

VARIOUS FW190 TEST REPORTS (AIR 16/658)

C
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5
Page 6
Page 7

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2005, 05:36:03 PM »
Quote
That was an A-3 vs. Spit Vb @ 12lbs / Spit F.IX @ 15 lbs / Mustang 1a


Correct.  Faber’s Tactical trials are a great example of "at least" performance.  It is not top performance but we can say there were some things the FW-190 was capable of at least doing.

However Faber’s FW-190A3 was not developing full power due to the use of allied natural petroleum avgas.  This is an issue for us in our rebuild as well.  If you contact Motobende, they will tell you the same thing.  

You cannot set up a German engine using printed specifications designed for coal-tar derivative synthetic fuels and expect it to perform to full boost on natural petroleum.

The RAE recognized this and immediately set forth trying to fix the knock limited power production.  Unfortunately, while they did figure it out by changing plugs and settings, they did not flight-test the motor.  This was the only BMW801 they got to run smoothly and the only fighter variant they ever flew.  The FW-190F and G series have different motor set ups and different drag profiles.  
 

1.35ata is well within specification for the FW-190.  The Kommandogerät adjusted within tolerances (+/- .3ata and +/- 50U/min) based on real time conditions.  The pilot does not select 1.32ata on the gauge; the Kommandogerät does IAW the engine control lever position.  So it is not uncommon to see 1.45ata, 1.6ata, or "non-standard" manifold pressures.  This is normal operation.

Quote
In reference to speed the Farber report shows no more the 8 mph speed advantage to the FW at one altitude band.


See above, if you use Rechlin or Focke Wulf data the difference is much greater.  This is due to the greater power production of the motor.

Quote
In AH the A-5 can easily out roll the Spit F.IX.


What the AH FW-190 cannot do is flick out of the turn circle, dive, and zoom above the Merlin Spits.  This was the traditional Focke Wulf engagement against the Spitifire.  In AH the Spitfire will catch you in the zoom everytime.

Quote
said he 'greatly preferred the Spit IX over the 190'.


Right and that was his opinion.  It has been adopted as "fact".  I have point blank asked several FW190 pilots if they would have preferred the Spitfire or the performance of any allied plane to their FW190.  They all said no.

One put it this way, as long as I wanted to fight, I could.  That Spitfire was there until I decided to go home or I killed him.

That is not just the Spit IX vs. FW-190A3.  Just like any fighter design, the Focke Wulf gained power and design improvements over it's lifecycle. So while the variants changed performance stays relative between the two.

HTC can claim placebo and no one is claiming conspiracy.   However I noticed a glaring difference 2 patches ago in the maneuverability of the Focke Wulf in AH.  When AH2 first appeared, I felt they were modeled very well and only needed minor tweaking due to the fact they are modeled on allied data from captured aircraft testing.  That is not my imagination.

Some background on my "AH flying".  I only fly the CT and I almost always fly the FW190.  When AH2 came out, in the Finn-Russ for example, I had to work at it but could dogfight an La 5 or a Yak.  Gentle control input, using roll rate to cut the angle, good throttle control, and keeping my speed up were the key.  Now it has gone back to making clumsy passes and extending for half the map is the only way to survive.  Tangling with a La5 or Yak at even E state is not a very smart thing for a 190 driver.  I wonder if it is not tied to the trim?  I seem to constantly be trimming lately.

Maybe there are corrupted server files or data has been altered in the transfer.  I know many online games do suffer from this.  HTC might not have gone in and changed the FM but something has changed for sure.

Oh here is an encounter Willi Reschke had in an FW-190A8 with late war P47's and P-51's in January 1945:

 

 

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 05:42:26 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2005, 10:29:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

 

Right and that was his opinion.  It has been adopted as "fact".  I have point blank asked several FW190 pilots if they would have preferred the Spitfire or the performance of any allied plane to their FW190.  They all said no.

One put it this way, as long as I wanted to fight, I could.  That Spitfire was there until I decided to go home or I killed him.

Crumpp


Not sure what we're arguing about here.  Who adopted as fact that the Spit was superior to the 190?  A pilot expressed an opinion.  You speak of asking 190 pilots point blank and they prefer the 190.  Good.  It speaks to their confidence in their machine, which is important.  

I can say the same about the Spit drivers I've asked.  Neither opinion is fact, but a confidence in their machines.

Crumpp, I know what it's like to live and breath a particular airplane and you are clearly living and breathing 190s :)

Folks will argue til the end of time about which was the best fighter of WW2.  I think it's pointless.  You can speak to the best designs of the war and the 190 is clearly one of them, along with the Spit, 109, Mustang etc.  They did their jobs and did them well.

They all found their way to the very limit and edge of piston engined fighter development.  You can't do any better then that.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2005, 10:39:57 PM »
The Focke Wulfe series in the MAJORITY of the books I have read, are named the Best Overall fighter of WWII.  

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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2005, 11:50:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
The Focke Wulfe series in the MAJORITY of the books I have read, are named the Best Overall fighter of WWII.  

Karaya


Titles please?

I've never seen any book declare any one fighter the best and believe me I've read and have a ton of em :)
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2005, 04:28:54 AM »
Well, ask the Spit drivers and they will say Spitfire!
Ask the Pony drivers and they say Mustang!
Ask Izzy and he sais 109!
Ask Ack-Ack and he sais P38!
Like Broadhurst, - nothing like A Merlin Spitfire on 25 boost he said.
Try it in Aces high. The killer is the Spit XVI at the moment, frigging awesome aircraft. And it's not even the ultimate performer.
But that's just Aces High.......
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2005, 05:43:00 AM »
"Not sure what we're arguing about here."

I think the question is that if they were evenly matched IRL, so how close their performance is in AH. I think the AH 190A8 is not competitive with SpitIX or even less with later models. Or is it?

What has this to do with Corsairs ans Hellcats in Mediterranean, anyway?

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Offline Tilt

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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2005, 06:54:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Angus,

Pick up a copy of Shaw's Book:

http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3120.html

I think you will enjoy and learn a lot from it.  Ask any fighter pilot about the connection between roll rate, agility, and it's link to manuverability.



This point was put directly to Shaw at an AH con. It was put in context of the best way to utilise the 190 roll rate in acm.

The question initially floored him............ I think because his book mainly approaches stuff from the perspective of e management and wing loadings and their effects on angles capability.

His answer was basically "to use it alot" however it was clear he did not value it highly compared to turn and zoom rates.

I think therefore that there may be other "exponents of roll" to argue how advantagious superior roll rate is.

Superior roll rate obviously allows you to enter and exit  a manouvre more quickly than your opponent and when you can use a counter manouvre that includes a large roll component (eg barrel turn) it may allow you to make up for deficiencies in other areas.
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