Author Topic: Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.  (Read 3379 times)

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2005, 06:50:43 PM »
Quote
Yes, I saw that, I was mainly clarifying it for people who might miss it.


No Problem!  Your input is always welcome.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2005, 07:03:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Also the diagram presents a rather exagerated difference in roll rate.

Exactly!
It displays the delay in starting the turn due to the time it takes to roll - the difference is absolute and not relative. The only thing that matter is the time difference in achieving the needed bank.

Lets say both planes want to roll 90 degrees and pull hard. The FW190, according to the table Crumpp has posted, has a roll rate of 160 dps at 250 mph (best rate) while the F4u, has roll rate of 88 dps. The time difference in entering the turn will be 90/160 - 90/88 = 0.46 sec.

Pilot reflexes are not much better than this so this is almost negligible. For a 180 roll and split S the advantage will grow to 1 sec which starts to be significant.

The point I was trying to make with "suficient roll" was that if the 190 had roll rate of 1000 dps or 1,000,000,000 dps, it doesn't matter any more as the advantage will never be more than 1 sec per 90 degrees. Any advantage which is of the time scale of pilot's response or less is meaningless.

Bozon
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 07:06:39 PM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2005, 07:14:17 PM »
btw just for a comparison, I think HT or Skuzzy said that the net update time in AH is about 300ms. So every plane you are chasing in AH has initial 0.3 sec roll advantage over you due to net lag.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline agent 009

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2005, 07:25:59 PM »
Roll is paramount. Have to agree with Crump here. read Bob Johnsons book. He vector rolled inside a Spifires turn with ease in his 47.

190 pilots could shake a Spit by reversing direction as well with ease. Also Mike Spicks books are good regarding this. He has diagrams showing how this trick is done.

'Luftwaffe fighter Aces' is one & 'The Ace Factor' another I believe that show these diagrams.



Regarding 47 shooting down 190, a Gloster Gladiator could shoot down a 190 if he caught the pilot napping. The question-point I was raising with this thread was if german attitudes regarding US planes would change if Corsair & Hellcat were sent to med 43.

Not much argument re 39 & P-40, but 47 cut above these. I will forward the idea that Corsair & Cat a bit better than 47 as well. Weighed a bit less. I very seriously doubt Sakai would say same thing about 47 that he said about Hellcat.

47 maneuver with Zero? Me thinks probably not.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 07:37:13 PM by agent 009 »

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2005, 08:08:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
And what do you base that opinion on?

The USN test of a crashed FW-190 with badly out of adjustment ailerons and a knocking motor that could not even reach rated altitude or be brought to idle without stalling?

Here is what the RAE had to say about that test's conclusions the Corsair rolled as well as the Focke Wulf:
 

Facts are it would depend very much on which Focke Wulf and which Corsair we are discussing.

All the best,

Crumpp


     I'm amazed the Germans were able to wrest defeat from the jaws
of victory with all this untouchable uber iron they were apparently
flying.  After all, it was only sheer numbers that enabled the Allies to
stagger to a hard fought win..right?  

     Same old same old.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2005, 09:16:11 PM »
Quote
I'm amazed the Germans were able to wrest defeat from the jaws
of victory with all this untouchable uber iron they were apparently
flying.


What a silly, mindless post, and useless contribution to the thread.  Do you have any facts to add or are you just not comfortable with reality?

All the statements I make are backed up with documentation and facts.  They have previously been posted in other threads so feel free to search the BBS.

Please find where anyone claims anything about the outcome of the war?  

Quote
it doesn't matter any more as the advantage will never be more than 1 sec per 90 degrees


Check out some speeds in feet per second.  It is was in reality a significant advantage as noted in the tactical trials:







And of course at lower speeds it's excess power allowed it to pull a decent radius of turn:

 

With the exception of the fact the Mustangs were outturned easily, we know little else.

The P47D-4 report is much better for defining the conditions:

 


All the best,

Crumpp

Offline 38ruk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
      • @pump_upp - best crypto pumps on telegram !
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2005, 09:16:15 PM »
snip
Quote
I'm amazed the Germans were able to wrest defeat from the jaws of victory
snip

TEH 190 is the best fighter plane evar ! lol

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2005, 09:19:15 PM »
Those were early Allison engined Mustangs Crumpp for what it's worth.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2005, 09:27:47 PM »
Quote
Those were early Allison engined Mustangs Crumpp for what it's worth.


Yes they were and about 1000lbs lighter than the P51B/C series.  According to AHT, they were a much better sustained turner than the P51B/C series as well.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2005, 09:36:03 PM »
Quote
TEH 190 is the best fighter plane evar ! lol


Air Chief Marshal Sir William Sholto Douglas sure thought so...

Quote
There is however no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the fw 190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today [author's italics).


http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/letter_from_the_chief.htm

Nobody is claiming the FW190 should fly rings around everything else or have any strengths outside those tied to the design characteristics.

However, the modeling we have now is nothing representative of the type nor historic.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2005, 09:51:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Air Chief Marshal Sir William Sholto Douglas sure thought so...

 

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/letter_from_the_chief.htm

Nobody is claiming the FW190 should fly rings around everything else or have any strengths outside those tied to the design characteristics.

However, the modeling we have now is nothing representative of the type nor historic.

All the best,

Crumpp


He said it in 1942 prior to the IX showing up.  IT was essentially his light a fire under the Supermarine folks and others words.

I don't think he said it in 43, 44 or 45 :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2005, 09:59:22 PM »
Quote
He said it in 1942 prior to the IX showing up.


He said it at the conclusions of the tactical trials with Fabers aircraft.  The Spitfire Mk IX was tested in those trials.

Quote
I don't think he said it in 43, 44 or 45


No he did not and I agree.

However, in the FW190 equipped Jagdgeschwaders a Spitfire remained a Spitfire from '42 until the end.  The appearence of the Spit IX was not noticed nor did the pilots loose confidence in their machine over it or any other Spitfire.

Now Morale did take a dump when they could look up in 1944 at allied formations stretching across the horizon from end to end.

It's a common Luftwaffe anecdote of the young pilot, full of propaganda, who on his first mission looks up at the contrails of the bomber stream above and tells his crew chief, "See our victory is certain, look at all our planes heading to stop the bombardments!"  The crew chief shakes his head and as he seals the young pilot in remarks, "Those are not ours, good luck."

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 10:10:14 PM by Crumpp »

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2005, 04:03:58 AM »
Quote
Check out some speeds in feet per second. It is was in reality a significant advantage as noted in the tactical trials:

Those that I can read are comparisons with spitfires, not F4U. P47s also rolled fast enough (or to be exact, spitfires rolled slow enough) for it to be an advantage as R. Johnson describes in his book. Still, 190s rolled better than jugs but as the roll rates get high enough this advantage becomes meaningless. The time advantage that a fast roll buys you really depends more on the slower roller, not the faster one.

"Manuverability" is an ill defined term that describes a pilot's feel more than anything. One must remember that mass air combat involved very little manuvering and a lot of flying around at full speed, trying to ID an enemy plane and bounce it, while trying to avoid being bounced yourself. The most important and common ACM was split-S and dive for the clouds - not very glorified but effective. This involves a 180 deg roll and so 190s could perform it so well against slow rollers like spits and P38, and get 2-3 seconds advantage from the faster roll. When P51, P47 and boosted P38 showed up, the time gained through the roll was much shorter and the manuver was much less effective. Robert Johnson describes it as a death manuver if they tried it vs. a P47 (and enough did to pad up his score).

Super uber roll rate will gain you nothing if the other plane can roll half decently. 190s had also other thing going for them (firpower, speed, zoom) when roll-rate became insignificant. They were not that one dimentional.

Bozon
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 04:06:00 AM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

storch

  • Guest
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2005, 06:27:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
I'm amazed the Germans were able to wrest defeat from the jaws
of victory with all this untouchable uber iron they were apparently
flying.  After all, it was only sheer numbers that enabled the Allies to
stagger to a hard fought win..right?  

     Same old same old.
 The allieds won due to the great industrial might of the United States.  Had the United States remained neutral the outcome of WWII would have been different, namely the english and the french would be speaking german and the russians would be eating bugs in siberia.  The axis leadership were they're own worst enemy and needed to have their heads placed in nooses.

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2005, 09:34:39 AM »
Quote
Those that I can read are comparisons with spitfires, not F4U. P47s also rolled fast enough (or to be exact, spitfires rolled slow enough) for it to be an advantage as R. Johnson describes in his book. Still, 190s rolled better than jugs but as the roll rates get high enough this advantage becomes meaningless. The time advantage that a fast roll buys you really depends more on the slower roller, not the faster one.


Honestly,

Sounds like a bunch of excuses why the FW-190 does not have it's historical place in AH.

They certainly were better at dogfighting than "master of the Split S"!  All the FW190 pilots say pretty much the same thing.  They got in close and fought.  They had no aversion to tangling with any allied fighter because of the performance of their machine.

Nothing you have written is quantifiable.  

What is credible are the experiences of the RAE/USN?USAAF pilots in a captured FW190 as "at least" performance.  What is quantifiable are the original documentation on the design.

None of this adds up to the FW190 being a clumsy, too heavy to fight design, which could only ambush and Split S away.

Quote
They were not that one dimentional.


No one is claiming they were one dimensional.  Roll rate is however very important to agility and makes up the second major portion of an aircrafts "manuverability".

All the best,

Crumpp