Corsair & Hellcat in Mediitteranean theater.

[Crumpp]

I think the question is that if they were evenly matched IRL, so how close their performance is in AH. I think the AH 190A8 is not competitive with SpitIX or even less with later models. Or is it?

Exactly.  Your right in that should be in another thread.

What has this to do with Corsairs ans Hellcats in Mediterranean, anyway?

The discussion was about Corsair/Hellcat vs. FW-190.  This has to do with competitiveness of the fighters in the MTO.  Using the Navy test, the pilot’s opinion was taken as fact over recorded performance.  The same with the RAE tactical trials as I pointed out in answer to such comments as:

So for it to be undoubtably the "most manueverable" fighter of WW2, as some have clalimed, well, I find that curious.

What I actually said was:

The FW190 was the most agile fighter in WWII.

 

The RAE combined the other characteristics to make their statements on the FW-190's maneuverability in comparison to other aircraft.

As Guppy points out all pilot had confidence in his machines.  Foreign tests of captured aircraft during wartime have to have fact separated from opinion in order to be useful.  Not that the opinion is not valid for that individual either.

Pilot confidence does speak volumes about the competitiveness of the aircraft. Pilots would not be confident in aircraft that could not fulfill its mission and get them home.

All the best,

Crumpp

[hogenbor]

I never claimed the Fw-190 should be able to beat the Spit IX easily. It only strikes me as odd that the RAF would call the Fw-190 more maneuverable than the Spitfire IX.

The same report also states that the Spit IX and Fw-190 are well matched, the performance figures suggest this as well. Yes, I know this particular Fw-190 was a captured aircraft and the issues with the engine are well documented. Still, the difference between them would not be dramatic.

But coming back to 'our' GAME (let's not forget it is), I would take any Spit over its historical Fw-190 counterpart. Granted, I'm an occasional player and not an ace, but I'm also not an idiot. The Fw-190 is plainly inferior here.

I have no axis or allied bias in this game and if the guys at HTC state that they haven't either I believe them. Still, the Fw-190 is a dog to fly compared to everything else. A shame really as pilots commented on its easy handling and good fighter abilities. Sadly I cannot quantify any of the stuff I've read in countless books, and I can imagine the nightmare it must be for the programmers. I just wish for a FW-190 that is a good match for a Spitfire.

[Charge]

"Superior roll rate obviously allows you to enter and exit a manouvre more quickly than your opponent and when you can use a counter manouvre that includes a large roll component (eg barrel turn) it may allow you to make up for deficiencies in other areas."

Of course that is correct, but in addition to good roll rate the a/c needs at least moderate elevator control and ability to change vector without draining huge amount of E while doing it.

-C+

[Crumpp]

Of course that is correct, but in addition to good roll rate the a/c needs at least moderate elevator control and ability to change vector without draining huge amount of E while doing it.

Sure.  Qualities the FW190 did posses.  Unfortunately, the entire series elevator control seems to be modeled after the results of the allied test pilots on the FW-190A3.  No notice is taken of the CG adjustments made in later variants or the individual characteristics of the aircraft itself according to Focke Wulf, Gmbh and the Luftwaffe.

The RAE's assesment in the trials was that the FW-190 was at least more manuverable than the Spitfire Mk IX.  It did not turn as tightly, however.

Facts are the elevator was sensitive in a properly trimmed FW-190 and it was easy to over control.  An inexperienced in the type pilot could easily mush the speed and chaulk it up to a "non-effective" elevator.  Heinrich Beauvais, Rechlin test pilot comments:
 

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

So the 190 was very crisp in agressive vertical movements as well?
The Spitfire was the boss in that region, - the elevator authority was too much. So, you can't pass that can you?
Anyway be it an error of HTC or not, a Spit XVI meeting a 190A, co alt and speed will have it for lunch

[Crumpp]

So the 190 was very crisp in agressive vertical movements as well?

According to the measurements, yes.

The Spitfire was the boss in that region, - the elevator authority was too much. So, you can't pass that can you?

Do you have a report on the Spitfires elevator authority?  Do you understand it?

I can send you one.  The Spitfire is far from being the "lone ranger" in the "too much elevator" authority department.  Many aircraft suffered from the same problem.  Including the P 51 and the FW 190.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Titles please?

I've never seen any book declare any one fighter the best and believe me I've read and have a ton of em

Me too, I'm 32 and have been reading WWII books since the second grade.  My brother works at a Book Distributor and I get to read Advanced Reader Copies (Pre-Pubs).  I have read more than 20 books that have named the 190 series an Overcall choice of best plane in WWII.  

You're gonna have to Google.  The last book that made the claim was read back in 1994 or 95.  I've read too many books in that span and cannot recall the title or author.  I get roughly 10 books a month through my brother.   For example: I read Flyboys 8 months before it was released, and still have the pre-pub to Flags of our Fathers, among 100's of other in the basement.   The wants them gone, I told her to stick it.  

Karaya

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Guppy35
If the 190 driver flies the 190s fight, the 190 can control it.  

Do you mean to keep alive?

Initial Co-Alt, Co-Speed AH Spit vs AH 190 starting at any alt would have a quick evolution, 190 will build up more speed if keeps level or dives, meanwhile Spit will gain altitude much faster. In few seconds we'll have an untouchable hi spit and a lower fast running 190. Who is controlling the fight now?

[Crumpp]

Basically the FW190 can make HO after HO.

Unless the spit pilot is just plain stupid it is pretty easy to avoid getting roped.  Every solution becomes a 50/50 shot in the FW190 vs Spitfire Vb.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by MANDO
Do you mean to keep alive?

Initial Co-Alt, Co-Speed AH Spit vs AH 190 starting at any alt would have a quick evolution, 190 will build up more speed if keeps level or dives, meanwhile Spit will gain altitude much faster. In few seconds we'll have an untouchable hi spit and a lower fast running 190. Who is controlling the fight now?

And in a real world scenario that may be the case.  Last I checked most kills were of planes where the victim never saw the plane that shot him.

A 190 pilot would have been operating under his own ground control and more then likely in position for the bounce on the Spits.  If you read the combat reports it was often just that.  The 190s come down fast take their shot.  If the tail end Spits don't see em, those tail end Spits go down to the cannons of the 190s.

If the Spit drivers see them, the Spits turn into them and climb, while the 190s are more then likely going to use their superior roll rate and dive speed to get away and the Spits couldn't follow, either to reform for another bounce or to call it a day.  When it was life and death that was how it worked.

Not many Snoopy and Red Baron turnfights going on in those circumstances, which is obviously different from AH where no one is dying.

I seem to recall Johnny Johnson talking about a fight with a 190 when he was in a Spit V.  The only thing keeping him alive was the superior turn rate of the Spit.  At the same time he's lamenting the fact that the turning is defensive not an offensive move.  

Bottom line the wise 190 pilot isn't going to give in to the urge to turn fight with a Spit.  He'll fight it to the strengths of the 190, not the strengths of the Spit.

And again, as the Spit got closer  to 190 performance, this became tougher.

When I speak of Spit pilots with confidence against the 190, it's the IX, XII, VIII drivers, not the Spit V drivers.  They knew they were in for it if they encountered 190s.  You can argue forever about whether the 190 or any of those Spits had the overall edge, but I think it misses the point.  THe pilots in those planes, whether it be Spit or 190 had confidence in the machine they were in when they encountered the bad guys.  That makes a huge differnce I think.

[Angus]

Hehe, from masherbrum:
"For example: I read Flyboys 8 months before it was released, and still have the pre-pub to Flags of our Fathers"

Maybe you saw the film? I did, from the scene, nener nener
look here http://www.flagsofourfathers.net

[Crumpp]

A 190 pilot would have been operating under his own ground control and more then likely in position for the bounce on the Spits. If you read the combat reports it was often just that. The 190s come down fast take their shot. If the tail end Spits don't see em, those tail end Spits go down to the cannons of the 190

That is the ideal case with any interception.

I would have to disagree on this being the case the majority of the time.  Maybe the RAF pilots felt that way but from the Luftwaffe reports it took some time for the Ground Controllers to gain experience.  Additionally the radar itself was just not that accurate to give precise information on altitude and formation composition.  Often as not they put the intercepting FW-190's co-alt or out of position.  Many times they even put the FW-190's below the aircraft they were sent to intercept or launched them outnumbered.

I have quite a few reports of intercepting FW-190's climbing, searching for the targets, only to see them screaming down on top of them.

Key difference between the German early warning and the English system in use was the use of the Observer Corp.  While radar could give early warning and an approximate altitude, it was the Observer Corp who gave the specific and accurate details.  Linked by landline to Fighter Command and equipped with insturmentation to determine altitude and exact position/heading, they were a key component provider of timely accurate information to the pilot necessary for an advantaged interception.

http://www.combinedops.com/ROC.htm

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
That is the ideal case with any interception.

I would have to disagree on this being the case the majority of the time.  Maybe the RAF pilots felt that way but from the Luftwaffe reports it took some time for the Ground Controllers to gain experience.  Additionally the radar itself was just not that accurate to give precise information on altitude and formation composition.  Often as not they put the intercepting FW-190's co-alt or out of position.  Many times they even put the FW-190's below the aircraft they were sent to intercept or launched them outnumbered.

I have quite a few reports of intercepting FW-190's climbing, searching for the targets, only to see them screaming down on top of them.

Key difference between the German early warning and the English system in use was the use of the Observer Corp.  While radar could give early warning and an approximate altitude, it was the Observer Corp who gave the specific and accurate details.  Linked by landline to Fighter Command and equipped with insturmentation to determine altitude and exact position/heading, they were a key component provider of timely accurate information to the pilot necessary for an advantaged interception.

http://www.combinedops.com/ROC.htm

All the best,

Crumpp

Would you agree that the 190's tactics were not to turn fight with the Spits?

I agree that the bounces didn't always happen that way.  Reading through the Spit XII combat reports, I did note that often when they got kills, the 190s were climbing up to intercept bombers, and that when there were losses to the XIIs it was from high 190s coming down.  The guy with the height advantage controlled the fight.

No real turn fighting though.  Hit and run, dive away stuff on both sides.  Turning for defense not offense.

[Crumpp]

Would you agree that the 190's tactics were not to turn fight with the Spits?

Definately!  The FW190's stayed in the verticle were they had the advantage.  They might yo-yo or turn for a short period to gain gun solution but the moment the Spitfire gained in the turn or their speed dropped too much, classic FW-190 tactic was to flick out of the turn, shallow dive, and regain the high ground.  The Spitifire Mk XIV was a real bear because it had the best chance of following the FW190 using this tactic.

Sustained turning with a Spitfire was sure way to lose the fight.

In AH this kind of fight becomes HO after HO as all Spitfires can follow the flick and dive which is not an option for the FW190 driver.

The guy with the height advantage controlled the fight.

Absolutely.  Plane type does not make much different.  Positional advantage makes a huge difference in the outcome of fight.

Turning for defense not offense.

YES.  Everyone avoided turning if it all possible.  Many fights did though break down into "dogfighting" as the group with positional advantage gained confidence there targets were alone.  They would then press their advantage on those not shot down in the initial bounce.  

All the best,

Crumpp

[Squire]

Thats the fun of scenarios and other events, where most want to make it home and you have real missions to run, the WW2 tactics immediately come into play. At least thats what I like about them. It gives the a/c a chance to shine in the roles they flew in, and the armament and flying characteristics make more sense than how they are perceived in the MA.

Ex. Having a P-47D-11 at 30k is utterly pointless in the MA, but not in a setup where they are escorting B-17s that are themselves at 22k.

Im hoping ToD will bring that.