Author Topic: Perking the TA152  (Read 4216 times)

Offline Howitzer

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2005, 02:07:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt
Ok, so now we've reached the point where one of you has flown a TA152, or for that matter any of the planes in this game and knows what is 2% and what is 50%?

Come on... Any minute now, HiTech is going to pop in and utter my most favorite line... "If you can write a better Massive online flight sim, go do it."


Well, that statement would just come out of frustration.  In the 20 times I've previously seen this topic, I haven't seen one person agree the 152 should have a perk tag in this environment.  The only factor to argue about is the firepower, which the unperked a8 has more of.  HTC had the opportunity to fix this when the 190's were redesigned, but they didn't touch the 152.  That tells me that either they didn't deem it necessary for a redesign, or it just isn't worth the effort they'd have to put in it.  If I were a betting man, I'd choose the latter.  

Would be nice to hear an explanation of the perk value once and for all though.

Offline straffo

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2005, 02:07:52 PM »
Unperk the TA152.

Perk the D9 and the K4 instead.

Offline Shaky

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2005, 02:07:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt

Come on... Any minute now, HiTech is going to pop in and utter my most favorite line... "If you can write a better Massive online flight sim, go do it."


Why not? Someone said that to him, once :)
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Offline Kev367th

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2005, 02:25:12 PM »
Look at it this way -

If Microsoft with all their resources and money still have problems (FS2004, CFS3), you gotta hand it to HTC for getting things as good as they are.

It's never as easy as changing one single value.


Perk costs/reasons have always frustrated me, doesn't seem to be a logic to it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 02:27:46 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Wilbus

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2005, 03:42:09 PM »
Missundertsood your post Kurt, I took it as you were talking about the real deal.

Of course it is different in AH.

As for the Fw 190's though, they were never reported to turn easily with Spitfires, but they were reported to duke it out with them and do it ALOT, specially in the first year the Fw 190 was in combat. This was thanks to alot of other nice feutures of the 190. Of course, to duke it out with a Spit in a 190 (any 190 vs any spit) in AH is suicide, hell even a poorly flown spit V will eat a Dora to lunch unless the Dora keeps it stricly high speed B&Z and starts with alt.
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Offline AKFokerFoder+

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2005, 05:29:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurt


The role that the TA152 fits in AH is very narrow.  So narrow that any other perk plane and almost all of the non-perk planes can smack the crud out of it 6 days out of 7.   Nothing with that narrow of scope should be a perk.

If you unperk it, it's not as if you're going to see a sky full of TA152's.  It's a great plane for specific missions, Special events and such.  But in the MA its mostly a hanger queen.


Even unperked it will be a hangar queen.  

I am sure I am not the only one who finds the perk system to be a bit of a mystery.  That is, why one plane is perked, and another better plane isn't?  Especially in an arena that doesn't model realistic game play in the sense of two sides, and Axis vs Allies, and 1941 vs 1945.

I have flown the 152 enough to know that it will never be my main ride perked or unperked.   Sure it turns better than most 190s, but it is hardly a turn fighter.  It's firepower isn't as good as a A8, and about the same as the 109s with a 30 nose spinner and gondolas.  True the 20s are a bit more inboard on the 190s which helps.  But 4 hispanos are better than the 152 gun package.

Down low is where it counts in the Main Arcade server.  And down low you have to either be:

A: Really fast, with good acceleration and firepower

OR

B: Really agile, with good acceleration

OR

C: Fly in hordes

The 152 does not turn good enough, nor accelerate fast enough, nor does it have a great top end speed.

The game play in the Main Arcade is based on land grab; killing gv's and hangars at a field, then supressing any air defense of the field (vulching) untill a goon or a M3 arrives.  This forces the game play away from higher altitude fighter to fighter combat, and gets it down low and dirty.  Attackers attack in mass to suppress (vulch), defenders HO, Lalas and Spit thrive in this kind of arena.

In the Main Arcade game play, the 152 as modeled in AH is a target drone, not the monster it was.

Perking a dog doesn't turn it into an uber ride.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 05:51:00 PM by AKFokerFoder+ »

Offline gatt

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2005, 02:24:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Unperk the TA152.

Perk the D9 and the K4 instead.


Oh no! :huh
We'll have to dust off our C.205s .....
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Offline Krusty

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2005, 10:32:41 AM »
SHHHH!!! Don't let them know about AH's most under-rated plane!

Offline Hades55

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2005, 11:19:02 AM »
Opinions and reality are different things.

Respect for the best propeller fighter of WWII. The TA 152.

Only Tempest would dare to stand infrond of it.
Lets see one of the last Dogfights of WWII between TA 152 and Tempest.

Conclusions yours.

http://hem.passagen.se/chla/stories.htm

The dogfight of the two most advanced piston-engined fighters of WW2
The Stabsschwarm of JG301 was the unit to fly the Ta 152 operationally. The pilots were impressed by it's handling characteristics. One pilot said:
"-The flying characteristics put all previous German fighters completely in shade. Although I never flew the Me 262 jet, I would venture to suggest that the Ta 152 was far better when it came to dogfighting with the Allied fighters then in service."


So, the Ta 152 was good, the Tempest was also good. Who was better? The Stabsshwarm of JG 301 was stationed at Neustadt-Glewe. On 14. April after returning from a mission two enemy Aircraft were reported strafing Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152s were ordered to scramble at once- piloted by Oberstleutant Aufhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfeldwebel Reschke.

"-As the direction of take-off was in line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact wit enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests Flying in No. 3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest had clearly only just registered our presence. So it was now two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shot-down our V-1s. But here, in a fight which would not rise above 50m, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realized from the start it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactial ploy possible to gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began to fully appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights , the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside of me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapon went silent, and despite all my efforts to clean them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot didn't realize my predicament as he'd already taken hits. Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself, so I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually-inevitably-he stalled. The Tempest's left wing droped and he crashed into the woods below. It so happened that that the sit of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash site and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealender Wt Off O. J. Mitchell, were only about a kilometer apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery next day with full military honors."

Offline bozon

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2005, 11:38:50 AM »
Quote
Conclusions yours

one Ta152 down and one Temp down.
Killing the 152 didn't require any action of the Temps.
=>
Temp is more efficient.
:D
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Offline Hades55

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2005, 11:44:26 AM »
another one view of the story http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/fragments/fot_best.htm

Two of the Best

It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation.

An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units.

By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire.

By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground.

At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152.

At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home.

Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story;

"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action."

Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece.

In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat.

"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.

Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.

The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.

Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.

Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us."

The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening.

The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins.

It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before.

Footnote:

In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted;

"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about ¼ inch high on the hem."

Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.

Offline Hades55

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2005, 11:50:08 AM »

Offline Hades55

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2005, 11:56:25 AM »
another one....  http://uncleted.jinak.cz/sTa152H.htm

Tempests vs. Ta 152H, 14 April 1945
By Prof. Erata

Background: While carrying on a final rearguard against the Allied air forces, the Luftwaffe continued to fight fiercely with its determined pilots and its remarkable fighter aircraft, one of which was the Focke-Wulf Ta 152H. The only unit which used it, the Stabsschwarm JG 301 (JG 301 Staff Formation), won a few kills with this aircraft, one on 14 April 1945.

In the words of Ofw. Reschke:

"Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n°3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

"Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta’s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest’s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler’s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".

Map: Ground Terrain.

Aircraft:
 Luftwaffe
 =
 2x Ta 152H-1
 
 
 RAF
 =
 2x Tempest V
 

Set Up: Place the Ta 152Hs in hexes 1925 and 1926, wings level, facing NNW, altitude 0.1, and speed 7.0. Place the Tempests in hexes 4018 and 4019, wings level, facing S, altitude 0.1, and speed 7.0.

Game Length: see below.

Special Rules:

The Tempests remove two points of ammunition.
It’s a death duel! The game is won only when one of the two forces loses one of its aircraft. As soon as one of them is destroyed, the other aircraft on that side must break off the action as soon as possible.
Additional Rules: Pilot Quality - The Germans are both veterans-aces. The Britishes are regulars.

Source: Focke-Wulf FW 190 Aces of the Western Front, by J. Weal - Osprey Publishing.

Offline Wilbus

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Perking the TA152
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2005, 12:15:53 PM »
Quote
Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once felling that I was approaching the limit of the Ta 152 capabilities.


In AH the limit is reached when the plane leaves the ground.
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2005, 12:38:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
Missundertsood your post Kurt, I took it as you were talking about the real deal.

Of course it is different in AH.

As for the Fw 190's though, they were never reported to turn easily with Spitfires, but they were reported to duke it out with them and do it ALOT, specially in the first year the Fw 190 was in combat. This was thanks to alot of other nice feutures of the 190. Of course, to duke it out with a Spit in a 190 (any 190 vs any spit) in AH is suicide, hell even a poorly flown spit V will eat a Dora to lunch unless the Dora keeps it stricly high speed B&Z and starts with alt.


Yes they did the 1st year when the advantage was very much theirs vs the Spit V.
As the war wore on though they were very loathe to come down off their perch to fight low alt Spits
Got to the point Spit squadrons would deliberately fly underneath to try and bait them down, without much success.
Dan has a few anecdotes on this.
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