could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Thrawn]

Communism, at best, makes sure everyone has an equally crappy standard of living.

[lazs2]

boroda... I don't understand anything I read on this?   I am wrong?   You are telling me that soviet russia had no secret police or walls to keep people in?  

If you admit this much how can you possibly say that soviet russia was not doomed as a political force?

I thought that was all we were talking about.   I am sorry if I am making it too simple but... it really is that simple....

If you have to build walls to keep your people in you are ultimately doomed to fail.

How am I wrong?  

lazs

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Boroda
I don't know, fact is fact.

If you know better and more simple explaination - please share it. You have been fighting for our rights for 50 years, then why you suddenly changed your mind?

Anyway, regardless of the reasons - if USSR opened the border, Western reaction had to be the same. Isn't it easy to understand?

When the USSR fell, the borderes were opened. What happened to all the Russian scientists ready to take all of our jobs?

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by detch01
Well, to answer the original question....

The USSR was a military empire that had been over-extended for decades. By the late 80's the Russian economy was collapsing in on itself under the strain of a failed war of conquest in Aphaganistan, a thiry-five year long arms and space race with the west, all of which had immediately followed a catastrophic war. And all this was preceded by two and a half decades of gross mismanagement of agriculture, the military and the economy, thanks to Stalin's paranoia.
In 1989, when it became evident to everyone that the threat of soviet military might was no longer real and the leaders of Russian client states could no longer be assured of soviet military power to back up their hold on their people, the soviet empire dissolved.
All military empires eventually dissolve is a truism. Military empires have to either turn into economic empires or they will die. That the Russian experiment with it can be measured in only decades just shows how flimsy the foundations of its empire really were. It wasn't capable of turning its military power into economic power. So no, it could not have been saved.

asw

Very insightful....and absolutly correct.

[weaselsan]

The United States actually was the first Country to try Communism. Long before Karl Marx was even born. The Pilgrims that landed at Plymouth Rock authored a document called " The Mayflower Compact". It was basically a blueprint for a form of collective government in which all wealth was shared equally among the group. It was a miserable failure for the simple reason that some in the group would not pull their weight and allowed others to do the work. There was no incentive to produce. The same principle applys with Communism. From each according to his means, to each according to his needs. Unfortunately the system doesn't allow people to create the means. And "needs" are subjective.

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by NUKE
When the USSR fell, the borderes were opened. What happened to all the Russian scientists ready to take all of our jobs?

They all went to work at the Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey

No ****.

But i'm tired - glad to see the discourse is still flowing like a drunken friday night.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Very insightful....and absolutly correct.

It is so wrong that I didn't bother to argue.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... I don't understand anything I read on this?   I am wrong?   You are telling me that soviet russia had no secret police or walls to keep people in?  

If you admit this much how can you possibly say that soviet russia was not doomed as a political force?

I thought that was all we were talking about.   I am sorry if I am making it too simple but... it really is that simple....

If you have to build walls to keep your people in you are ultimately doomed to fail.

How am I wrong?  

lazs

USA also has secret political police. Any state is a way of opressring it's population.

90% of Soviet people never encountered "secret police".

A decision to keep people inside was not wise IMHO, but it was a traditional policy for centuries. Now borders are open, but we are not welcome in the West, so - I see usual hypocricy and propaganda from your side.

Keeping people in wasn't one of the reasons to the USSR falling apart. Isn't it obvious?

I have never seen anyone who is happy that Union felt apart. Gorbachev and Yeltsin are two most hated people here. So it goes.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Wolfala
Be careful Karaya. Its like saying "Could New York City be saved from thinking its the center of the universe?" Simple answer is no, and the reason is for those who lived there, its for what experiences has colored for them. So as a result it'll remain the only city on the planet where 'fuc' isn't a word anymore but a comma; potholes are craters, and subway pretzles, like twizzlers are more addictive then crack.

And I am from New York, btw.

Having been to Russia several times over the last 2 years and friends w/ several folks over there who are on this BB as well as others is incidental to its value. One could say that my wife comming from a military family based in the far east colored my experience, which it certainly has in the most positive way. But that is not what the discussion is supposed to be about - Afterall, the topic was IF the USSR could've been saved and the theory behind that.

Try to stay on track.

Wolf

You have provided NOTHING of worth to this thread.  Move along.  Thanks for calling.   Rip understands the "perspective now", which was the PURPOSE of my post.   I never look over my shoulder, life is too short.

Karaya

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
You have provided NOTHING of worth to this thread.  Move along.  Thanks for calling.   Rip understands the "perspective now", which was the PURPOSE of my post.   I never look over my shoulder, life is too short.

Karaya

I feel like I need a smiley that isn't in a window to the left.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Boroda
It is so wrong that I didn't bother to argue.

December 1979, Aphganistan (attempted and failed).
August 1968, Czechoslovakia (invaded and normalized).
October 1956, Hungary (invaded and normalized).
June, 1941, Finland (again attempted and failed).
November 30, 1939, Finland (attempted and partially failed).
September 1939, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, complicit & concurrent with Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Taking the "right & wrong" out of the argument, the facts are that the Soviet Union was a military empire which was controlled in Moscow. The empire was in the main built on military conquest and maintained with the threat of military power. The worth of the Warsaw Pact treaty was demonstrated by the invasion of Hungary when Russian troops invaded in direct contravention of the treaty. The Brezhnev doctrine (his speech at the  Polish United Workers' Party Congress on November 13, 1968) was formal recognition (12 years after the fact) of the Soviet policy on the true independance of Warsaw Pact states.

Eduard Shevardnadze's speech of Oct 23, 1989 (the so called Sinatra doctrine) formally recognized the death of the Brezhnev doctrine, which was followed by the breakup of the soviet empire over the next few years. With the pact being dissolved in the summer of 1991.

No doubt you interpret the history differently. However, the facts remain the facts regardless of the interpretation.


asw

[Boroda]

Detch, list of American aggressive military actions in XX century in 10 times longer. And again - you lie. All actions you losted were successfull. Baltic states joined the Union after a legitimate democratic procedure.

USSR never was a "military empire which was controlled in Moscow". You have been told so to justify your own aggressive "crusade against communism". It's obvious.

Funny that you are sure that you can teache me about evilness of USSR. You saw it on TV, I lived inside it. Part of my family is from "evily opressed and starved" Ukraine. I expect you to tell me how opressed my family was.

[Flit]

Originally posted by Boroda
USA also has secret political police. Any state is a way of opressring it's population.

90% of Soviet people never encountered "secret police".

A decision to keep people inside was not wise IMHO, but it was a traditional policy for centuries. Now borders are open, but we are not welcome in the West, so - I see usual hypocricy and propaganda from your side.

Keeping people in wasn't one of the reasons to the USSR falling apart. Isn't it obvious?

I have never seen anyone who is happy that Union felt apart. Gorbachev and Yeltsin are two most hated people here. So it goes.

No, it's not obvious to me.Could you be so kind as to tell why You think the USSR fell apart ? (I'm not even gonna touch the "USA Secret Political Police")

[Vad]

Originally posted by Boroda
I have never seen anyone who is happy that Union felt apart. Gorbachev and Yeltsin are two most hated people here. So it goes.

Just for the record. I'am Russian, was born in Leningrad and was living there for 35 years. So I am old enough to remeber socialism, Brezhnev, Andropov, Gorbachev, etc.

I want to say that quoted statement is incorrect. I don't think that Gorbachev did something wrong. Moreover, polls in Russia show that only about 30% of population wish back to USSR. I am sure that similar polls in  former Soviet Republics would show much less percentage

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Flit
No, it's not obvious to me.Could you be so kind as to tell why You think the USSR fell apart ? (I'm not even gonna touch the "USA Secret Political Police")

There was Russian Empire, in 1918 it lost Poland and Finland, then independant republics appeared like RSFSR, Ukraine, Far-East republic etc. On Dec. 30, 1922, a treaty was signed, founding the Union of Soviet Socialistic Republics. The Repuclics were: Russian Soviet Federative Socialistic Republic, Ukrainian, Belorussian and Trans-Caucasian Soviet Socialistic Republics.

By 1940 there were 16 republics. During and after Great Patriotic War some other countries and terrirories were included into Republics after proper democratic procedures (Tuva) or annexed (Kaliningrad region). In 1956 (IIRC) Karelo-Finnish republic was

In 1991 local political leaders, speculating on declared right of every Republic to leave the Union, announced "independance". USSR ceased to exist. Inheritor of the USSR was RSFSR in 1991 borders, after Yeltsin't coup in 1993 renamed into Russian Federation.

So, Soviet Union as one state felt apart. Is it clear?

For me it means that half of my family now leaves abroad. Good reason to pity good old USSR.