The Notorious DA Challenge

[mars01]

This line has always amused me. Who gives a flying fug if the guy is timid? Is he the only plane in the arena? There's plenty of fish in the sea, quit obsessing about the guy that won't, for whatever reason, fight you and get busy wacking the ones that will. If you want to be able to force people to fight you who are choosing not to it's really, really simple...FLY A FASTER PLANE. Yes it won't be able to turn on a dime and give you nine cents change but you won't have to worry about people being timid. I rarely encounter timid pilots, because if I want a fight, I get a fight, speed and people feeling they have a chance to out-manuever me does that for ya.  If timid pilots annoy you, perhaps it's time to put the Spit away and fly something that has the speed to dictate the terms of engagements thru initiative. Ask Shane why he started flying the La7....

It has probably amused you cause you are so close to it.

I log in to fight, not chase other guys around.  Even when I do grab a faster plane the timid won't engage after you have reversed them a few times.  

What do you do as Zazen, when you have dove in on a con and he has reversed you 3 times in a row.  Do you press the fight or go look for an easier mark?

And It's not a matter of dictating the fight either.  I dictate the fight even in a disadvantage, all you have to do is turn your six to some of these guys and they engage once in a while.  Mostly it's the guys that even after you hand them your six, make 2 or 3 lame passes and then disengage or run from a 1 Vs 1 half a sector back to the horde.  That is timid, boring and ghey.


BTW - do me a favor, pull up the list of planes I have flown so far this tour and post them for me.  I would but I had to back door the BBs from work to get into them.  I can't get to stats and score pages.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

It just makes me laugh when you start the "but you fly this plane argument" because for the way you fly, the typhoon is a much better plane then the spit, but you can't see it to realize there really isn't an argument here.  But you keep falling back to it like it does hold weight.

AHA! I finally got you to say it! Woohooo! What you just basically said is a poor pilot like myself, can take what is otherwise a mediocre plane, fly it meticulously to it's strengths and make it conditionally better than a better pilot in a much all-around better plane.

That's my point, a good pilot isn't someone who stallfights or dives into 1 on 3's. A good pilot is simply someone who flies whatever plane he is in to maximize its strengths, minimize its weaknsses while at the same time negating the strengths and accentuating the weaknesses of the enemy. A pilot isn't only good if he turnfights, a pilot isn't only good if he E-Fights, a pilot is good if he flies whatever plane he chooses to it's maximum potential..period....end of story.

Zazen

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Obviously comparisons are heads-up, Heads up a Spitfire is great at practically everything, a Typhoon is great at 2 things, speed and firepower. No doubt if the Typhoon driver is flying in a way that accentuates the two things he is great at, speed and firepower, he can attain some measure of conditional superiority to the all-around best plane, the Spitfire.

Zazen

Gee I guess thats what we are talking about, if the tiff driver uses that endlessly, like some in the arena, you HO him , well gotta go fly now, have fun postulating

shamus

[mars01]

Your basing your judgement of me as a pilot on heresay? Umm, that just stupid. I never said I live at all costs, I just put living ahead of killing as my priority. For example, I am not going to dive onto 5 guys for a kill and risk dying for that one kill, when I can negotiate the pack patiently and perhaps get 3 or 4 of them and not die.

No the people are quite stand up and there are plenty of posts that you have said you fly to live at all costs.

You make me laugh, you say "Dive in" there is your first clue.  No one is going to fly into any fight for 1 kill.  If I fly into 4 or 5 guys it is to kill all of them.

I have never seen you in any fights where you and your country men did not well out number the reds and even then you guys come in at retarded alts.  I'm sure you would never engage a fight at lower alt to even the playing field.

[mars01]

AHA! I finally got you to say it! Woohooo! What you just basically said is a poor pilot like myself, can take what is otherwise a mediocre plane, fly it meticulously to it's strengths and make it conditionally better than a better pilot in a much all-around better plane.

Well this is a great example of how you put words into peoples mouths.

It just makes me laugh when you start the "but you fly this plane argument" because for the way you fly, the typhoon is a much better plane then the spit, but you can't see it to realize there really isn't an argument here. But you keep falling back to it like it does hold weight.

OMG LOLH In no way did I say nor does my statement mean what you are trying to twist it into.  Nice try.  Tho.  Sheesh, if you have to start a response telling me what I just said your streaching a bit, don't you think.

The Typhi is an uber plane flown BnZ style.  It is better then the spit on all counts that way.

Just as the Spit is an uber plane flown TnB style.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

I log in to fight, not chase other guys around.  Even when I do grab a faster plane the timid won't engage after you have reversed them a few times.  

What do you do as Zazen, when you have dove in on a con and he has reversed you 3 times in a row.  Do you press the fight or go look for an easier mark?

And It's not a matter of dictating the fight either.  I dictate the fight even in a disadvantage, all you have to do is turn your six to some of these guys and they engage once in a while.  Mostly it's the guys that even after you hand them your six, make 2 or 3 lame passes and then disengage or run from a 1 Vs 1 half a sector back to the horde.  That is timid, boring and ghey.


 

Mars, if you fly a plane that does not out-turn them, they will engage you. If you fly a Spit only other Spits, Hurricanes, Zekes and Fm2s are going to really want to knife-fight you. Fly a plane like the Typhoon, 205, 109, F6, etc, and EVERYONE and their uncle will be willing to have a go at you in a knife fight. The irony is because I fly a Typhoon I actually probably get more even turnfights than you do in your Spit. You basically have to dive into 1 vs 3's to make yourself an attractive enough target to knife fight by any plane other than a another uber-turner. The only planes I ever have had not want to engage me is La7s and Fw190D9s and 109K4s. Any other plane I encounter can't wait to get a piece of me.

As far as what I do in that situation. It's all about seperation. I am actually, in spite of rumors to the contrary, a very aggressive pilot. When I choose to attack I'm not fugging around, it's a ballz to the wall attack. I may be selectively timid, but the other side of that coin is selectively aggressive. So long as I can maintain seperation on a more manueverable plane I will press the attack, that is where E-Fighting shines. If I am doing my job correctly I should be able to maintain my E advantage almost indefinately, providing me with at least several shooting opportunities ( I usually only require one). Of course both our E states will degrade over time, so how long I can press the attack without losing that critical seperation is determined largely by the starting altitude of the fight. Once the fight gets on the deck I will inevitably not be able to maintain seperation, so must either break off, turnfight him, or kill him before that happens. Ask Greebo about it, he's got one of the best reversals and overshoot moves in the game, I never let go of him until one of us is dead.

Zazen

[mars01]

That's my point, a good pilot isn't someone who stallfights or dives into 1 on 3's. A good pilot is simply someone who flies whatever plane he is in to maximize its strengths, minimize its weaknsses while at the same time negating the strengths and accentuating the weaknesses of the enemy. A pilot isn't only good if he turnfights, a pilot isn't only good if he E-Fights, a pilot is good if he flies whatever plane he chooses to it's maximum potential..period....end of story.

Ok lets seperate good from average.  Yes an average pilot can do all the things you have mentioned.  It's not hard.  Pick your fights, fly your plane correctly with all advantages kept in your pocket.

A good pilot is one who can take any plane into a 1 or 2 vers 1, take some chances and win.

A great pilot is one who can take any plane into greater odds and win.

Anyone can fly safe and manipualte a planes strengths.  Take some chances, make a plane do more than it's supposed to, fly it beyond it's envelope and back.  That is a good pilot.

[mars01]

Mars, if you fly a plane that does not out-turn them, they will engage you. If you fly a Spit only other Spits, Hurricanes, Zekes and Fm2s are going to really want to knife-fight you. Fly a plane like the Typhoon, 205, 109, F6, etc, and EVERYONE and their uncle will be willing to have a go at you in a knife fight

You make is sound like if someone doesn't turn fight they are timid.  That is not the case.  re-read my posts then try to reply with something that applies.

BTW - can you or someone please go get my plane stats for this tour and post them.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
Ok lets seperate good from average.  Yes an average pilot can do all the things you have mentioned.  It's not hard.  Pick your fights, fly your plane correctly with all advantages kept in your pocket.

A good pilot is one who can take any plane into a 1 or 2 vers 1, take some chances and win.

A great pilot is one who can take any plane into greater odds and win.

Anyone can fly safe and manipualte a planes strengths.  Take some chances, make a plane do more than it's supposed to, fly it beyond it's envelope and back.  That is a good pilot.

I won't totally disagree with that, but be aware a good pilot in an E-Fighter can engage a superior number of enemy and win and do it without having to turnfight them. Is he great too or is he not great because he won a 1 vs 3 by E-Fighting the 3 enemy not turnfighting them?

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
You make is sound like if someone doesn't turn fight they are timid.  That is not the case.  re-read my posts then try to reply with something that applies.

BTW - can you or someone please go get my plane stats for this tour and post them.

 I re-read it, that's what it sounded like to me, sounds like you reversed on someone enough to remove his seperation and he fled. Had he not fled, without seperation, it would end up being a turnfight. So, does that means that anyone who loses seperation to your far more manueverable plane and chooses to disengage is timid? I'm sorry mars but that is just smart flying, he may not win the Testosterone Jockey of the Year Award but it's still smart... Getting into a knife-fight with a more manueverable plane that is piloted by someone with obvious skill is 'un-intelligent'. It's as un-intelligent as you trying to run from an La7 in your Spitfire...

Zazen

[mars01]

I won't totally disagree with that, but be aware a good pilot in an E-Fighter can engage a superior number of enemy and win and do it without having to turnfight them. Is he great too or is he not great because he won a 1 vs 3 by E-Fighting the 3 enemy not turnfighting them?

I don't have a problem with agressive e fighters.  My statements stand irregardless of style in that way.  

But I do not call a 3 V 1 where the one starts out 5k higher than the others and has a drastically better advantage then his opponents.  Again fighting with the advantage is what I would also call average.

[JMFJ]

Wow you guys are better fighter sticks than me.  That must mean all of your opinions are right and all of mine are wrong, man I never thought of it that way before.

I painted your picture pretty accurate, you deny what i describe and then repeatedly act just like I described.  Amazing, you can claim what you want cause some people are naive enough to believe what they are told, or what you tell them.  I judge you by what I've seen.

I tried to throw out some oppinions, I'm not finding any constructive debate only name calling, newbie comments etc.... I have posted multiple threads over the last month or so and It is strangely interesting that the same people post these oppinionated no one elses oppinion matters comments and when faced down with statistics start in with the name calling and generally childish behavior, EVERY THREAD.

Hope that all works out for you guys, your views are based on your advantages plain and simple.  The same day you guys lose your advantage you'll probably quit playing.

Skyrock-any time.

JMFJ

[mars01]

I re-read it, that's what it sounded like to me, sounds like you reversed on someone enough to remove his seperation and he fled. Had he not fled, without seperation, it would end up being a turnfight. So, does that means that anyone who loses seperation to your far more manueverable plane and chooses to disengage is timid? I'm sorry mars but that is just smart flying, he may not win the Testosterone Jockey of the Year Award but it's still smart... Getting into a knife-fight with a more manueverable plane that is piloted by someone with obvious skill is 'un-intelligent'. It's as un-intelligent as you trying to run from an La7 in your Spitfire...

That is one case and it's still timid, you don't need to flee a fight if you are an uber pilot.  You talk of tactics and dictating the fight.  If you lose seperation then you should be manuevering to increase seperation not disegaging and running, especially in a 1 Vs 1.  Again I don't expect a BnZ guy to knife fight me, but I do expect them to fight.  If they blow some of their advantage they should still fight.

Another case is the pilot thinks they are outmatched and just gives up and uses their uber advantages to just leave.  That is also timid.

[mars01]

Wow you guys are better fighter sticks than me. That must mean all of your opinions are right and all of mine are wrong, man I never thought of it that way before.

No it doesn't.  But all of your ideas in this thread are misguided and actually wrong.  No matter how you slice it and even if you cry "woe is me" doesn't make wrong ideas right.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01
That is one case and it's still timid, you don't need to flee a fight if you are an uber pilot.  You talk of tactics and dictating the fight.  If you lose seperation then you should be manuevering to increase seperation not disegaging and running, especially in a 1 Vs 1.  Again I don't expect a BnZ guy to knife fight me, but I do expect them to fight.  If they blow some of their advantage they should still fight.

Another case is the pilot thinks they are outmatched and just gives up and uses their uber advantages to just leave.  That is also timid.

Disengaging is restoring seperation...Once there is parity bewtween your E states he has 2 choices:

1) Dis-engage from you to restore seperation.
2) Continue to fight a more manueverable plane in a turnfight.

I would always do #1 unless I thought either of these 2 things:

1) He was not very good
2) His plane is not a total over-match to mine in a turnfight. For example in my Typhoon I will have a go in a turn-fight with anything German except 109E/Fs, La7s, P51Ds, any perk plane and obviously another Typhoon.

If #1 or #2 applied I would opt to turnfight rather than regain seperation.

So you see if you fly a Spitfire and someone like me thinks you have some skill you won't get a turnfight, you will get dis-engaged from. That is unless he is also in a Spitfire or similiarly manueverable plane.

Don't take this the wrong way but alot of what you are calling timid is in actuality wisdom.

Zazen