AntiVulch Code

[hubsonfire]

so, basically, the only "improvement" in this entire idea is modifying the scoring DB, which basically, no one who's competent gives a rat's bellybutton about anyway?

sounds great.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
The career vulchers will become career pickers, or proximity vulchers, hovering at the edge of the field, just outside of ack range, as opposed to having to fly through the ack. No longer will they have to simply deack and drop the VH; with your marvelous idea, they will no longer have to do either.

You forget I spend 30 hrs+ a camp sitting at fields being vulched. I am perhaps the most qualified person in the game to tell you what happens and what would happen. I've watched a million fields being vulched and I've seen hundreds of the tight vulch CAP's be broken. So long as defending planes are able to get airborne there is an excellent chance the defenders will be able to break CAP at some point against all but truly overwhleming odds. This is for two reasons:

1) Defenders are typically taking off in planes that climb well, are more manueverable and are carrying much less fuel.

2) Defenders get to return to the fight 3 seconds after they are shot down, attackers take much much longer.

So, as long as the defenders are able to get airborne and there's at least a decent ratio of them to the attackers, they will be able to mount some sort of base defense. Of course there will be people who hang outside of the AA umbrella to cherry them as they do now, but the defenders can fight against that. They can't fight against people making pass after pass on the take-off spots at their totally defense-less planes as they spawn.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
so, basically, the only "improvement" in this entire idea is modifying the scoring DB, which basically, no one who's competent gives a rat's bellybutton about anyway?

sounds great.

Yup, will be a great improvement. If only the 'competant' people who don't care if vulching people on the ground is just a waste of ammo are the only ones vulching besides the dedicated base capture guys, there will be a HUGE drop in the amount of vulching.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

I pulled all of that, having actually wasted some time considering your proposed change, it occured to me that simply taking the scoring incentive out won't necessarily prevent deacking and the dropping of VHs. I'm also concerned that since the GV and AC models are fairly similar, that HT couldn't impliment something which negated any and all damage and kill tallying while anything is on the ground.

Let's consider also the endless FH porking. What do you get for dropping a FH? 1 or 2 perks, on a good night? .5 to 1 for the horde? And look how many of those go down on any given night.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm also concerned that since the GV and AC models are fairly similar, that HT couldn't impliment something which negated any and all damage and kill tallying while anything is on the ground.

Let's consider also the endless FH porking. What do you get for dropping a FH? 1 or 2 perks, on a good night? .5 to 1 for the horde? And look how many of those go down on any given night.

I am going to talk to HiTech or Pyro about the coding practicality of it via email.

As you said in your post you deleted, people will still come to fields to get kills, they just won't purely vulch, so the same 'peer pressure' that prevents FHs from being dropped now at CAP'd fields will still be active without pure vulching. In actuallity I think my change would actually lessen the advent of FH dropping by all but high altitude buffs, the low-alt FH killers and the diving lancs would have a much, much greater chance of being intercepted with airborne defenders to contend with.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, will be a great improvement. If only the 'competant' people who don't care if vulching people on the ground is just a waste of ammo are the only ones vulching besides the dedicated base capture guys, there will be a HUGE drop in the amount of vulching.

Zazen

I'm not even hinting that only the guys who don't care about score are vulching. I'm saying that they are the group more likely to not care about score, and hence won't be vulching anyway. If a bunch of idiots in the Arf Angels, shiznobs, or whatever other dedicated rank squads want to spend all of their time online trying to gangvulch a third account, that's great. It keeps them out of my way, gives you something to shoot at with your ground guns, and they feel like heroes.

As I've stated before, all you have to do to end vulching is quit upping at capped fields. If all the newbs and vets alike at the capped field scrambled from the adjacent field, they'd come in with speed, full mags, alt, and just about every advantage in the fight. It requires no coading, and is already in the game.

I still don't see why we need to change gameplay to curb a particularly stupid behavior. The problem isn't the game; it's the people.

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I am going to talk to HiTech or Pyro about the coding practicality of it via email.

As you said in your post you deleted, people will still come to fields to get kills, they just won't purely vulch, so the same 'peer pressure' that prevents FHs from being dropped now at CAP'd fields will still be active without pure vulching. In actuallity I think my change would actually lessen the advent of FH dropping by all but high altitude buffs, the low-alt FH killers and the diving lancs would have a much, much greater chance of being intercepted with airborne defenders to contend with.

Zazen

You still miss the point. With your grand ideas, fields will be buried in cherrypicking tardfoons, maintaining both their alt and their speed. Instead of 8 idiots slow and wheeling around in a panic, we'll have 8 idiots at alt and speed, practicing all of the BnZ sissypants stuff you've flooded the BBS with. There will no longer be any sort of fight around a base being attacked. There will simply be a mob of pickers, who'll step aside for the mob of porkers once enough defenders get airborne.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
As I've stated before, all you have to do to end vulching is quit upping at capped fields. If all the newbs and vets alike at the capped field scrambled from the adjacent field, they'd come in with speed, full mags, alt, and just about every advantage in the fight. It requires no coading, and is already in the game.

I

Hub, don't you see that is what is responsible for the milkrunning hordes and the non-fighting, especially on huge maps. People aren't upping from vulched fields, the milkrun-horde continues unabated and there's very little actual fighting. That's the whole point, to make defending fields under attack both more practical and effective. This would not only make domino-effect milkrunning much more difficult, but it would push fights away from fields more toward the middle. Do you know what that's called? A FURBALL!
More furballs and less milkrunning and vulching especially on the HUGE maps is the goal here.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Hub, don't you see that is what is responsible for the milkrunning hordes and the non-fighting, especially on huge maps. People aren't upping from vulched fields, the milkrun-horde continues unabated and there's very little actual fighting. That's the whole point, to make defending fields under attack both more practical and effective. This would not only make domino-effect milkrunning much more difficult, but it would push fights away from fields more toward the middle. Do you know what that's called? A FURBALL!
More furballs and less milkrunning and vulching especially on the HUGE maps is the goal here.

Zazen

The milkrunners look for bases without resistance, fields on the periphery, etc. The horde porks anway. The score weenies don't think much about either; they look for a fight that's already underway, between fields, and either fly a circuitous route around the fight, or attempt to use your so-called smart flying to push the fight back to the field, and then vulch and pick guys just as they get wheels-up.

Instead of trying to stallfight a zeke at 90mph (zeke snuck out when they were trying to get the il2 that snuck out), they're going to be waiting in the wings, and come screaming in WFO and pick. The idea that you're creating a better fight in this manner just makes no sense. You're not creating fights, you're making vulchers fly "smarter". This is not good for the defenders who launch at these fields. It also drags the victims of the would-be GV and ack heroes out of range of their guns. Having done plenty of anti-smart flying in these situations, I feel that I'm qualified to say you're doing some anti-smart planning, and must dismiss this idea for being wholy impractical.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
You still miss the point. With your grand ideas, fields will be buried in cherrypicking tardfoons, maintaining both their alt and their speed. Instead of 8 idiots slow and wheeling around in a panic, we'll have 8 idiots at alt and speed, practicing all of the BnZ sissypants stuff you've flooded the BBS with. There will no longer be any sort of fight around a base being attacked. There will simply be a mob of pickers, who'll step aside for the mob of porkers once enough defenders get airborne.

Have you ever tried to cherry pick a Hurricane who is on the deck while you are going 500mph in a Typhoon while the Hurricane is radically turning?!? Good luck with that! If you can consistantly do that you are a better Cherry picker than I am....

Anyways, as I said I've been at a million CAP'd fields and there's well defined stages, each stage puts a tighter and tighter stangle-hold on the field until it's almost entirely suffocated, unable to defend itself at all.

1) High CAP- These guys are over 10k, they can prevent defenders from getting to that altitude but cannot prevent planes from upping or getting considerable E.

2) Medium CAP- These guys are typically Jabo'ers who have dropped their loads and are between 5 and 10k. They are attacking planes that have upped recently but have plenty of E to manuever and defend themselves.

3) Tight CAP- These are the ones that sound the death knell for the base defenders. They can be from deck to 5k and they are persistantly buzzing the take-off spots and taxiing planes preventing any defenders from taking off much less getting enough E to manuever.

So, at each stage of CAP the base is less and less able to mount a defense. My change would target the final type of CAP the Tight CAP. They would have a choice, continue to vulch planes for no reward and maintain that Tight CAP or back-off to Medium CAP or High CAP  and let the defenders up, get a bit of E and then enage them and get rewarded for doing so.




Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
The milkrunners look for bases without resistance, fields on the periphery, etc.  

That's exactly right they do. As it is now it's very hard to defend against. But, give defenders a chance to up and fight them off and what was a milkrun on a periphery field suddenly becomes a fight at a periphery field.

Zazen

[hubsonfire]

Yes, you're exactly right. The defenders will get a little bit of E, and the attackers, instead of being Co-E, will still have a more pronounced advantage, and also not be bothered by Ack. The problem with defending in this situation isn't just getting some E built up; it's getting the attacker to dump his, and jump him when he does. Your idea would encourage no attacker to get slow, or give up his advantage in altitude energy. They'll come down, 2, 3, 4 or 5 at once, fire off a short burst, and the hurri/zeke/il2 that got wheels up has no place to go, and no advantage against any of the attackers.

If anything, this utopian scheme of yours would only make the situation worse.

To clarify my concerns regarding this proposed change to gameplay:
The easiest way to land a sortie of more than 5 kills, for the vast majority of players, is to vulch. The second easiest is pure cherrypicking in a many-vs-few engagement. Both yield the same results, and provide the same padding effect insofar as scoring/ranking is concerned. When you eliminate the easiest method, the second easiest method becomes the path of least resistance. That's my concern; that instead of these clowns being consumed with vulching, they'll be overwhelming any fights that have developed whereever the vulchers have been overrun.

[CAV]

The only bad thing I see about this is if your a base capture guy...

This system just made the FH/BH's the best target in the game. The furball types are no longer going to help cap a base... so the next best thing to do is take the base down so no one flys. Right now we have guys dropping the troops all over map, it will not be long before it hits the buff drivers (who don't have alot of good targets anyway) they can effect the battle for the map by dropping the FH/BH's all around the battle areas. It sucks hopping from base to base looking for troops. Think what it would be like having to do that for a fighter.

Cavalry

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Yes, you're exactly right. The defenders will get a little bit of E, and the attackers, instead of being Co-E, will still have a more pronounced advantage, and also not be bothered by Ack. The problem with defending in this situation isn't just getting some E built up; it's getting the attacker to dump his, and jump him when he does. Your idea would encourage no attacker to get slow, or give up his advantage in altitude energy. They'll come down, 2, 3, 4 or 5 at once, fire off a short burst, and the hurri/zeke/il2 that got wheels up has no place to go, and no advantage against any of the attackers.

If anything, this utopian scheme of yours would only make the situation worse.

The defenders can still use their ack. You are assuming just one defender is upping. Look at my original post, I use a typical example of 8 attackers vs 5 would-be defenders. If those attackers are not inclined to vulch the defenders until they are airborne, those 5 defenders have an excellent chance of getting enough E built up to manuever. You saying allowing a vulcher to vulch take-off spots makes him burn more E than trying to cherry a manueverable and airborne target with some E is...ummm...not making sense. I've seen plenty of D9 and La7s vulch take-off spots going 550mph then zooming to 10k, they would be very hard pressed to do that vs. a manuevering Hurricane, much less 5 of them, they'd definately burn more E trying to do that that making passes on take-off spots or up and down the runway.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by CAV
The only bad thing I see about this is if your a base capture guy...

This system just made the FH/BH's the best target in the game. The furball types are no longer going to help cap a base... so the next best thing to do is take the base down so no one flys. Right now we have guys dropping the troops all over map, it will not be long before it hits the buff drivers (who don't have alot of good targets anyway) they can effect the battle for the map by dropping the FH/BH's all around the battle areas. It sucks hopping from base to base looking for troops. Think what it would be like having to do that for a fighter.

Cavalry

Why would furballers not help CAP a base? They would have more targets as there would be more people wanting to defend and there would actually be a furball not just a runway vulching session where you wait in line for your turn to make a pass on the one guy crazy enough to try to up.

Zazen