Author Topic: B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance  (Read 2956 times)

Offline Simaril

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« on: January 05, 2006, 07:07:45 AM »
Aces High 2 rightfully prides itself on accurately representing flight characteristics of its subject aircraft, and it dedicates nearly equal attention to the modeling of fighter weapons systems. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for ordnance modeling in level bombers.


No personal computer program can “simulate” what it would be like to fly in an aircraft; true aircraft training simulators have dedicated controls instead of keyboards, hydraulic motion systems, and enough high tech interfaces and graphics to bankrupt all but millionaires. All PC games, whether considered “simulations” or “arcade games,” necessarily require compromises from reality to be usable on the platform.

Simulation computer games like AH are, however, clearly distinct from their themed arcade brethren. When designers need to make compromises, the arcade game will consistently move in the direction of fun – leading to such traditions as inertia free “movement on rails,” endless ammo belts, and glowing power ups. The simulation designers, however, make their choices while trying to respect the essence of the platform they’re simulating. So, to choose an example from AH2, the fields are artificially close for the sake of game play; but, to maintain the disadvantage owed to short ranged aircraft, the fuel burn rate is doubled.  Neither the close fields nor the 2x fuel burn are realistic, but the combination of choices means that the P-51 feels like it can go anywhere and the La-7 still feels like it has a beer can for a gas tank.



Weapons systems are simulated in AH2 with the same high respect given to flight models – unless we consider ordnance delivered from a bomb bay. As far as AH is concerned, the bomb bay doesn’t exist. Bombs fall from a point source in the aircraft, and will “pass through” the visible plane regardless of its attitude, with out any damage or limitation. Bombs will fall through the fuselage sides, through the forward bulkheads and the pilot compartment, or out the tail. In fact, you can drop thousands of pounds while 100% inverted – and take absolutely no damage to spars, wings, or other obviously vital structures. Bombs are the core weapons system for level bombers, but the model shows absolutely no respect for the real delivery system.

For level bombers, AH is an arcade game.
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Offline Simaril

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2006, 07:15:47 AM »
Understanding the Problem

In the B-17 there were four bomb racks, with two facing out from a center support and two facing in from the plane’s outside walls, as can be seen in this photo.



Note that these were not “chutes” with bombs stacked on top of each other. Each bomb was firmly attached by a shackle system, that included a hard inverted U welded to the bomb, a bracket with clips to lock into the bomb’s U, and the anchor brace that attached the bracket to the bomb rack itself. Bombs were then braced with tensioning screws that kept them from shifting.




Bombs were released mechanically or electrically when the shackle bracket was allowed to pop free of the bomb rack. They could be salvoed with defined delay, or dropped singly – just as is modeled by AH2. Bombs were not guided out of the aircraft – they went into “free fall” from the time they were released.

Consequently, it should be obvious from the photos that bays were designed with essentially level drop angles in mind. If the bomber was angled too sharply, the bomb would strike the bulkhead as it left the aircraft. This would likely cause structural damage, proportional to the weight of the bomb and the forward vector of movement. (I.e., the steeper the angle, the more of the weight would be directed into the structure.) Bombs from upper racks would strike bulkheads when flying at less severe angles, since they had farther to fall before leaving the plane. To give an idea of the clearance needed, the photos above show 250lb bombs shackled in place. Also, larger and heavier bombs required more clearance – and could do more damage if dropped inappropriately.

How much damage could be done? Remember that these aircraft were largely made of aluminum, and not armor plate. For example, look what A SINGLE 20mm shell did to a B-24 over Balikpapan.




Just imagine what 1000lbs of free falling iron could do!

The concept of drop angle limitation applies to every bomber with a bomb bay, though I have not been able to yet track down the equivalent data tables for other bombers. None the less, here’s an illustration from the cavernous bay of the Lancaster.



The anterior bombs would clearly do damage if dropped steeply.

But enough of the qualitative description. Here is the actual Bomb Release Angles Chart from the 1948 version of the B-17 Flight Operations Instructions AN 01-20EG-1. (I also have the 1944 version, but though it has the same data its presented less clearly and over 2 pages.) I left the file big for readability – my apologies to those with slower connections.




Does the potential damage matter? Obviously in real life the pilots wanted to keep their planes 100% intact, but that restriction does not apply to Aces High. All the same, at LancStuka angles a 2000lb bomb could realistically end up plowing into the pilot’s back rather than dropping magically from its current point source, and we shouldn’t tolerate that either.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 08:12:55 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Simaril

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2006, 07:16:29 AM »
Suggestions for AH2


This complexity of the “real” table would seriously raise the frustration quotient and drop the fun quotient for bombing, and should NOT be incorporated into the game. However, the current bombing model cannot continue if Aces High is serious about being a simulation of air combat.  After all, bomb dropping, as the essential function of the heavy bomber, needs to be modeled with the same respect give to, say, the rate of fire and muzzle velocity of the Hispano 20mm.

I’d suggest the following for consideration.

1.   Planes with bomb bays should be treated as if the bomb bays really exist.  There must be some limits placed, beyond which bombs will not drop – no more dropping through the top of the fuselage!

2.   Once the limits are passed, one of two things should happen. Either the bombs simply will not drop (my preference), or they should be allowed to drop with both airframe damage being incurred AND with failure to arm/detonate. Remember, the fuses had spinners that needed to rotate before the bombs would arm. Getting plastered by airframe structural elements would reasonably be expected to damage the fuse spinners and prevent arming.

3.   Pitch angle limits should be incorporated, but they should be simplified for playability’s sake. For example, using the B-17 data above, I’d suggest taking the average angle for all shackle positions and all bomb weights and applying it to the airframe as the limit for all situations. Considering all bomb rack positions for the extremes -- 100lb and  the 1000lb bombs -- that average comes out to roughly 20 degrees “glide angle” (downward). EDIT Ooops. The posted table includes a 10 degree safety factor in all entries. I forgot to allow for this when doing the averages, so the corrected average would be 30 degrees glide angle.

4.   Roll angles for successful bomb drops should also be limited. In real life, the limitation in roll angle was so obvious to anyone that stepped aboard a bomber that no one even talked about it. Look at how little side–to–side room there is in that bay! Aces should include roll restrictions as well.

5.   I have been unable to get detailed data about the other level bombers in AH, though I am still trying. (NASM, which currently is the repository for flight manuals in the National Archives system, has a huge backlog and hasn’t even responded to my initial query after 6 weeks. The Lancaster Manual from the RAF Museum does not include bomb aimer notes.) Even without the exact numbers, it remains very clear that the current model is incorrect. I’d suggest that the same angle limitations be applied to all bomb bays – even if the numbers turn out to be off some, they’d be FAR better simulations than are currently in place! Also, it would be clearly unfair to penalize the B-17 just because it’s the only airframe that has hard data available at the moment.

6.   Planes that had both internal bays and external ordnance should have these restrictions applied to the internal bays only.

Aces High is a tremendous simulation overall with excellent balance between accuracy and game play. It deserves far better than its current bomb bay model, and this aberration deserves to be corrected promptly.


Respectfully Submitted,

Simaril
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 08:13:43 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Ghosth

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2006, 07:38:38 AM »
Good post, well thought out, with data to back it.

Simaril, you running for sainthood??

10 out of 10

Make it so!

Offline NHawk

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2006, 08:01:45 AM »
To many people mistake "Diving to target" as Dive Bombing.

This is the best post against dive bombing level bombers I've seen. There can be no argument against the data provided. Well done!
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Offline NAVCAD

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Suggestions for AH2
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2006, 08:33:02 AM »
Simaril

Outstanding post!  

I agree 100% with the "dive bombing level bombers vice dive bombing" !  I for one tend to be a level bombing pilot (all be it low level for which I pay the price for...i.e. don't land much).  

HiTech can you make this happen without a huge re-write of code?

I know there are a lot of GVrs especially that would appreciate not haveing to worry about the flight of LANCs in a 45 degree dive dropping 4000# bombs.

V/R

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Offline USHilDvl

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2006, 11:45:19 AM »
Excellent.  Well communicated, concise and on-point.

I agree completely.  Some basic limitations to eliminate Lancastukas would only benefit the game.

Dive bombing in heavies is gaming the game.

I Have Spoken.  :D


Offline DaYooper

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2006, 12:24:40 PM »
Just curious, I wonder if Simaril has his Ph.D. in aeronautical engineering?

Offline Morpheus

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2006, 12:31:56 PM »
Good post :aok
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Offline Stang

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 01:00:23 PM »
:aok

Offline Simaril

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 01:26:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DaYooper
Just curious, I wonder if Simaril has his Ph.D. in aeronautical engineering?



Dont imagine it for a minute. I'm not an engineer at all, and though I have a science background I get lost in the AoA, load factor, and torque discussions. I'm just an aviation history geek with (hopefully) a knack for logical writing.

Thanks for the kind words, all.

Simaril
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Offline indy007

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 01:39:28 PM »
I don't think it'd be a terribly hard re-write of code. A simple if-then statement would suffice. Obviously, when you pickle off bombs, it checks to see if the bomb bay doors are open. If they're not, it gives you a message. Just add a simple "and (AoA < 13.5)" or whatever to the bomb drop function. If AoA is over 13 degrees or whatever is decided, just display the message "Unable to drop bombs, Angle too steep."

That's the simple way. A slightly more complex way would be to turn on self collisions and allow you to hit your own bombs.

edit: allowing for Yooper's post, he made a good point. Would also have to check for roll position. My way wouldn't be dead accurate taking into account all of the phsyics, but it'd fix the gameplay issue, and save on a bunch of cpu cycles.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2006, 02:45:07 PM by indy007 »

Offline Casper1

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2006, 01:58:04 PM »
:aok

GREAT POST, GREAT ARGUMENT, GREAT SUGGESTIONS!

j00 r teh win!

Offline DaYooper

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2006, 01:59:14 PM »
No, no, no.  That was a very obtuse insult in that I was comparing you with Straiga.  He would nit-pick AH and make all sorts of claims about his credentials.  He got away with it for a very long time till he strung himself out to dry on his own ego.

The kicker is he is probably still here, under a different name.

Your humility tells me that you do not have the bloated ego and need for self glorification that he has.

I apologize for the insult.

And yes, it is a very good post.

My boss (KAOS1, mechanical engineer, Air Force Veteran with AF pilot training) and I (mechanical engineer with aerospace experience) have discussed this topic briefly (we discuss all the good forum topics) and agree with you.

More than once, I've been in Mosquitoes and dropped, only to have the bomb pass through the cockpit, like a ghost.  Seems that they have the forward momentum modelled in some craft, but not the damage it would do.

Maybe HT could model the bombs as sprites and have them do damage if they hit aircraft sprites.  Same as getting hit by bullets or being rammed (then it would be a small step to model the German planes that towed a bomb on a cable as an anti-bomber tactic).

Although you should be able to drop while inverted or banked if the centrifical force would pull the bombs out of the bomb bays in the direction they were designed to go.

Offline Midnight

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B-17 Modeling Problems: Ordnance
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2006, 03:34:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DaYooper
Although you should be able to drop while inverted or banked if the centrifical force would pull the bombs out of the bomb bays in the direction they were designed to go.


For sure. My High School Physics teacher was a Marine fighter pilot. He used to tell us the stories of how they would fly over their targets, roll inverted and look at the target straight down through the top of their canopies. Then they would pull up (pulling into a dive), release the bombs while they were still inverted, and then pull though the rest of the maneuver.

Esencially, it was an immelman with a bomb drop added in.