Author Topic: Strategic bombing?  (Read 4199 times)

Offline slimey_J

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Strategic bombing?
« on: January 23, 2006, 11:55:13 AM »
Hey there, just a quick question:

Is there really much use for bombing the ack factories, oil refineries or other strategic targets? I read the help file and I’m aware of the general concept of the game’s supply system (City -> Strategic Point -> Airfield), but does anyone in the main arena actually consider bombing something other than the standard FH/VH/town formula?

On a whim, I took a formation of B-24’s to one of the enemy's ack factories and was able to reduce their AAA percentage in that zone to 80%. So, does this mean that it will take 20% more time for the ack to re-pop at all the airfields in that zone?

Just digging for some info, and wondering if anyone ever spends the time to attack strategic targets. Thanks. Cheers.

Offline FiLtH

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 12:33:31 PM »
As far as I know, all base stuff, be it hangers,fuel, ord come back up in a set amount of time. I dont think bombing those strats effect anything except it being fun to do so. Im not completely sure on this however as Ive seen isolated bases seem to never regen ord, but Im not sure if it was due to the zone control or what.

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Offline E25280

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 12:45:01 PM »
Unless HTC neutered it without updating the help files, bombing the strats could definitely affect the game.  Theoretically if you could get a bunch of friends to do nothing but blast strats, you could make a difference.  

Thing is, that many buffs grouped together in the MA seem to only go for the HQ, or go to completely flatten an airfield that is the target of a capture.

Once again, teamwork would be the key -- something that is unfortunately hard to come by in the MA on a typical evening.  Much better luck getting a bunch of people to vulch a field or go furball than actually do a strat bombing run.
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Offline NHawk

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 12:47:24 PM »
From the Help area...

Fuel Availability at the Field
The percentage of fuel available at a field is determined by whether a fuel object at the field has been hit, and the rebuild time depends on whether there is a resupply from the zone's refinery.  The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the refinery depends on if there is damage to the refinery.

Ordinance Availability at the Field
Ordinance available for aircraft, vehicles and/or boats at the field is displayed as part of the field status.  The rebuild time of damaged or destroyed ordnance objects is determined by whether a resupply occurs from an ammunition factory of that zone.  The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the factory depends on if there is damage to the factory.

Radar Availability at the Field
The rebuild time of damaged or destroyed radar is determined by whether a resupply from the radar factory arrives at the field.  The amount of supplies a radar factory for that country has been damaged or destroyed.  The amount of supplies shipped via convoy from the factory depends on if there is damage to the radar factory.

Troop Availability at the Field
Troops must be available for loading on troop transports such as the C-47, M-3 and LVT-2.  The rebuild time of damaged bunker objects is determined by whether a resupply of personnel from the training barracks of that country has arrived at the field.
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Offline Socks

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2006, 01:46:22 PM »
A good time to hit these targets is when your team is primarily conducting a push into the zones in which these targets reside and supply. For example, if your team is taking to the offensive in a zone (the best defense is a good offense), most likely they're going to knock out all the troops at bases within a reasonable coverage around the operational area. The starting ticker for these barracks (troops) is 2 hours. Rarely, if ever do I see a barracks stay down that long due to scripted resupply and manual resupply.

Obviously the ways to cut some supply would to go out goon hunting (or M3 hunting in the case of GVs) and targeting the scripted supply routes. The bombing alternate would be to bomb these strategic targets that are relative to the type of supply (Training Facility for troops, IE), and I think the magic % is below 50. Once below 50% operational, the facility takes a longer to start shipping out those relative supplies to a field within the zone. It's worth it when your team is pushing into enemy territory and trying to keep all the fields porked simultaneously and you don't own the "Home" field in that zone that controls all of the facilities that supply the various things. Usually bombers are tied up busy making sure troops, ords, dar, and FHs, and VHs are down at various fields. And usually the big coordinated raids go towards, you guessed it, the HQ.

The only time I've seen this in practice was one time my team was attacking one field on a lone island that was shared by another field that we currently owned. In the middle of the island was a Troop training facility (which we didn't control, as the field we had wasn't the "mother" field of the zone) which we got down to roughly 45%. Between that, and keeping tabs on the opposing field, we had to take action to make sure the troops were down less often. It's like a "behind the scenes" way of helping with the strat process. Taking down the troops at a field, and then hitting the facility for that zone below its optimal operational percentage, and that makes for one nice buffer. Then of course there's another huge aspect of hitting Cities so their resupply to the factories takes longer to keep their operational percentage lower longer, and then it takes even longer to fire off the scripted resupply routes.

It's a big net. The cities provide the factories and the HQ supplies, the factories provide the fields in that zone, and then the fields are the direct output for the players with troops, ammo, and fuel. As I see it, the progression (you could also reverse it, but doesn't make much sense to me) is hit the field strats, hit the factories if you can, and then aim for the cities. Of course, this would require a lot of manpower and/or decently, orchestrated, timed coordination to seem successful on certain levels. Mainly, hitting the strats with the most immediate effect is what chimes in.

But that's my .02. People might feel otherwise.

*EDIT* After writing all that, and seeing it written down.. it seems to be strategic bombing is highly overlooked and/or easily underrated in the effects it can cause if you have some decent, devoted bomber pilots besides the ones (or Jabos) already devoted to porking the fields.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 01:53:04 PM by Socks »

Offline Midnight

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2006, 01:49:18 PM »
When the game went from each country having 1 city and 1 of each factory to the new system of Zones each with a city and 1 of each factory, the entire strat system was IMO destroyed.

Why spend the time and resources to kill the city and then the factories, when all you have to do is capture the zone control base?

AH MA strat system is non-existant.

I used to get into many posting wars with the furball crowd about why strat should be important in the MA. HTC has made the MA what they think works. I've pretty much given up on picketing for strats.

The 412th FS used to carry bombs and rockets on almost every flight. We would shut down strats all the time on squad nights. Now, I can't remember the last time I even selected bombs or rockets. We just go out, find the enemy and try to shoot them down... somewhat furball style.

Well... If you really want to see how much fun I think AH is, check my play stats for the last few months. Low numbers, and the only other game I have played in the last 2 years is HL2. Never played IL2, CFS, WB, WWIIOL, BF, CS, DoomIII, Quake 4, Halo, etc.

I am **HOPING** that CT will be fun.

Offline Socks

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2006, 02:15:20 PM »
Although I agree with you Midnight in that the higher tiers of the strat system seem to be extended beyond reach of relative manpower and coordination to seem successful on varying levels, I'd have to argue that the most immediate strats are 99% of the game, most plainly - troops.

The RTC is one of the few squads that I've encountered so far (not saying that there aren't, to offend anyone) in my relatively short time playing the game that holds strats at a very high ech. If you want to see an offensive stop dead in its tracks for a semi-decent duration, watch the reaction after a properly executed strat run. Troops down within 100 miles from any of the front line bases. How do you capture fields? You need troops. How do you get troops? You need to bring them from a field (or CV, obviously) that has them. What will you do if the closest field you have with troops is 3-4 sectors back? Will you fly that C-47 the full gauntlet to find out mid-way that your team has lost the CAP superiority they once had, and if only if you had troops at one of the semi-close fields you could've capitalized on it.

That's not to say I don't, or the RTC doesn't enjoy a good furball. I can't say that I last long in one, nor do I try to get to the bottom of one too quick. There's certainly a difference between a potentially successful furball, and then one for the heck of it. If you like to head into a furball full steam with your squad members and you find that as fun - no one's saying otherwise.  Thats what you pay your monthly fee for, and your entitled to do so. I just enjoy that the RTC, on squad night or not, concerns strats very highly. I enjoy that we can drop troops for a good coverage area, and turn that potentially deadly furball that's ever so closing in our base that could turn into a CAP for the capture into just another plain furball for both sides. Thats why I enjoy AH2. There's many ways to be "successful". In shooting down an enemy plane, killing a GV, or bringing an opposing team's rolling captures (or overall effeciency) to a grinding halt.

Different strokes for different folks. :)

Offline slimey_J

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2006, 02:22:43 PM »
Right, so I guess my question is this: Are the zone percentages for a given strategic target directly related to the amount of time it takes to re-supply a damaged field? Are there any hard facts and numbers for this? In other words, the standard downtime for field ack is 2 hrs (game time). If we damage the ack factory and reduce the zone ack percentage to 50%, does that mean it will take 3 hrs for the guns to come back up at the field?

If this is the case, then it seems that the strategic importance of these targets could be huge. By myself, I was able to cut the ack percentage to 80%. So, if I had just one more person flying with me, we could potentially cut the percentage to 60% (maybe even 50%). I can recall a lot of situations in which our goon was trying to beat the clock and make the drop before the field started to re-pop. A few extra minutes of being “ack-free” is certainly a good thing.

Additionally, damage to the strategic targets impacts the entire zone. So, if my fellow Rooks are attacking two or three bases simultaneously (and none of them are the 'zone control base'), the rewards for a strategic strike are multiplied.

It just seems odd that these targets are ignored. We could be hitting the ack and radar factories of the country we’re offensively pushing against, while hitting the fuel, ord and training factories of the country we’re defending against. It doesn’t really take much – zone targets only require 250lbs bombs per building. Unless I’m way off the mark here (which is entirely possible), four or five bomber pilots attacking various strategic targets could really have a big impact on the game.

Offline Midnight

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 06:09:39 PM »
Slimey, to answer your question, yes, if the factories in a strat zone are hit, then the re-supply is slowed down in that zone, but that zone only.

One reason this doesn't matter is the neighboring zone is not effected by the strat hit on the other. Also, the fields are so close together that someone would be able to fly supplies from a 100% field to a damaged field so even if the strats for a zone are hurt, the resupply system is not effected. No matter how many loads of supplies are taken from a 100% base, that base stays at 100%.

Also, the enemy gets 0 automatic resupply if the field is in a zone where the zone master base is not owned by them. So the best way to "Strat" your enemy in a zone is not to kill their factories, but to take the zone master base. Then ALL the factories and the city in that zone are instantly yours and the enemy is instanly cut off from resupply. That can't even be considered realistic or even a simulation of partial realism.

Socks, killing troops may slow the enemy from taking bases, but it does nothing to stop the endless Air-Quake furball. IRL, battles are won by destroying the enemy's abilty to fight back. There are many ways this can be done.
1. Killing them all. Can't be done in AH because everyone has infinite lives
2. Making them run out of resources
    A. No more equipment - can't be done in AH other than at a per base level with FH, BH, VH
    B. No more weapons - can't be done in AH because no matter how many ammo bunkers you kill, the enemy still has infinite bullets and cannon shells.
   C. No more fuel - can't be done in AH at all anymore. Fuel is not a factor.

AH MA is nothing more than the average FPS capture the flag game. Respawn forver until your enemy gets so outnumbered that they just give up because they are tired of getting gang-banged.

Offline LYNX

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2006, 07:18:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by slimey_J
Right, so I guess my question is this: Are the zone percentages for a given strategic target directly related to the amount of time it takes to re-supply a damaged field? Are there any hard facts and numbers for this? In other words, the standard downtime for field ack is 2 hrs (game time). If we damage the ack factory and reduce the zone ack percentage to 50%, does that mean it will take 3 hrs for the guns to come back up at the field?

If this is the case, then it seems that the strategic importance of these targets could be huge. By myself, I was able to cut the ack percentage to 80%. So, if I had just one more person flying with me, we could potentially cut the percentage to 60% (maybe even 50%). I can recall a lot of situations in which our goon was trying to beat the clock and make the drop before the field started to re-pop. A few extra minutes of being “ack-free” is certainly a good thing.

Additionally, damage to the strategic targets impacts the entire zone. So, if my fellow Rooks are attacking two or three bases simultaneously (and none of them are the 'zone control base'), the rewards for a strategic strike are multiplied.

It just seems odd that these targets are ignored. We could be hitting the ack and radar factories of the country we’re offensively pushing against, while hitting the fuel, ord and training factories of the country we’re defending against. It doesn’t really take much – zone targets only require 250lbs bombs per building. Unless I’m way off the mark here (which is entirely possible), four or five bomber pilots attacking various strategic targets could really have a big impact on the game.



Don't get put off by some of the negative replies.  If you like bombing go ahead and strat the enemy silly.  It does slow their regain down which helps the push.  Also you, as a bomber, get loadsa pekies / points / rank.

I find nailing a City then the factories really works best.  Cities stay nailed for hours and the factories do regain slower.  Time it if you like.  One day hit factories only and time it to 100%.  Next day nail the city then the factory.  You'll see the factory takes longer to 100%.

Best to get the city to 20% or less.  Takes some practice.  My person best is 9% with 1 set of lancs.  A squady and I have gotten cities to 4% in 2 sets of B17's.  Factories really need to go below 50 %.  One flight should do it.  Again it's practise and experience.  I'd give you the whole "low down" thats taken me a few years to refine BUT you maybe my enemy so go find out for yourself :p .  I will give you this advice.  Use the City and Factory maps on the clipboard to plan the minimum three passes you have to make.  You can do that on the climb out.  It  will burn into your memory:D

Now the answere to your big question about how long it stays down.  NO ONE FREAKIN KNOWS :rofl   It's a percent thing man.  Percentage hit = percentage down time.  It is next to impossible to total a City and a or all factories at the same time.  Remember there is a built in auto regain.  You can never stop those road convoys, trains and barges.  You can me assured you will extend enemy field strat regain considerably forcing the badies to take guys of the front to run supplies if they need a certain fields strat up.  :aok
Without resupplying they are denied resources and if you see a field regain way to soon you needn't be Sherlock to figure out where they are going next.

Proof of the pudding.  When the enemies strat is fully 100% everything, go bomb an enemy barracks.  Time it and 30 min (real time) that barracks is up.  Now go bomb the living flookzoids outta training factory then whack that same barracks.  Time it mate.  It can be anything from 45 min to 90 min depending on Strat % not withstanding pesky resupliers.

Have fun keep your alt and never mind the name calling:noid

Offline Mugzeee

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2006, 08:32:48 PM »
I had seen several comments on Ch 200 that the strat system has been porked. Is this not true? Does the strategic system still work as designed?

Offline Saxman

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2006, 08:33:42 PM »
Eh, that's just the furballers screaming, not like it's the opinion of anyone that really matters. ;)

Count me with the go-for-its. The MA could use more strat guys.
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Offline LYNX

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2006, 07:00:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mugzeee
I had seen several comments on Ch 200 that the strat system has been porked. Is this not true? Does the strategic system still work as designed?


Ok channel 200 is the all countries channel...riiight !!.  You expect the enemy to say their Strat is porked ?:lol  Right click an enemy base and it tells you field strat and country strat.  Keep an eye on country strat when it's been hit.  You will see.:O

Granted that the strat system has changed from what it once was but it's still porkable weather field ot factory.  It's just different to what it was is all.  Thats what these "200" guys where prolly on about if they were genuin.

Remember the time when you could hit fuel on a base and the enemy could only up with 25%.  The furballers used to be :furious ....:rofl

Not that it's worth earning bomber perks unless your a 234 CV sinker but certain factories yeild more perks and points than others.  The most under porked factory is the fuel factory.  Thats because 99% of folk DON'T see the point......  :huh  

Get ya thinking caps outs.  Every piece of strat has a perpose and a way to exploit it's demise.  Don't listen to those that can't be arsed to do.  Listen to those that have:aok

Offline Patches1

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Strats
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2006, 08:36:49 PM »
I agree 100% with LYNX! Strats are important and can play a pivotal role in the MA.

The City Strat is the funnel through which all other Strats must pass. If you choke off the City Strat, level it to less than 50% even though all other Strats are at 100%, you will slow down the supply chain.

Now, couple the crippling of the City Strat with decimation of the other Strats and you begin to cause the FIELD strats (those barracks, acks, fuels, troops, etc. located on an airfield) to begin longer rebuild times.

Remember, though, that Barges, Convoys, and Trains do resupply BOTH field and Strat targets and hitting them also can delay rebuild times locally.

And, an interprising pilot can also resuppy STRAT targets by flying supplies to it via C-47, or on the ground via M-3.
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Offline Midnight

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Strategic bombing?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2006, 09:19:40 PM »
Guys. If you want to put so much effort into hitting strats, and you know you can't make the enemy feel the effects if you don't have enough bombers to do the job in a short time frame, why even bother to hit the strats?

Really, Just take all the guys you would normally use to do the strat hits, get into a coordinated raid and kill and capture the zone master base. Then your enemy is INSTANTLY crippled with zero automatic resupplies.

After that, you can bomb them all to heck and really make them suffer.

It's not like the old days when squads used to fly joint strikes against the city and several factories at once. I remember the Cites used to get leveled, followed shortly thereafter by AAA and Fuel factories. After that, once you killed stuff on a field, it could be down upwards of three hours.

Oh the Pain!