Author Topic: Rate has doubled?  (Read 5024 times)

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2006, 02:01:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
It is estimated that there are between 300,000 and half a million illegal handguns in england at this time... more are smuggled in all the time.

this is more than enough to feed all the criminals that might want to use a gun.   I have said many times that if I wanted to.... I bet I could be the illegal owner of a handgun in england a week after stepping off the plane.


Despite being totally incorrect factually, your argument is also flawed logicially lazs. IF there were that many illegal handguns in the UK it would vindicate the gun laws. IE if guns are so freely available in the UK, compare the gun crime rate per capita with the UK and the US and I think you'd find its something like one hundredth of the US rate... conclusion the UK gun laws are working.

Try again lazs ;)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2006, 02:39:49 PM »
after the latest gun ban in england 160,000 legal handguns were estimated to have been turned in... it is estimated that the number is about half of the legal handguns out there...   there were many illegal weapons that had been smuggled in before that..  These figures are by Koppel.

More handguns have been smuggled in every year in those ten years.... only a few thousand have been confiscated....  It is common to rent a handgun in england if you need one for a crime.  The prices for illegal handguns are not high in england but the penalties for possesing or using one are.

So say there are between 150,000 and who knows how many handguns still floating around....  That is more than enough to supply all the criminals that want one...  I know I could get one within a week of getting off the plane in london...  they are still easy to come by.

So vulcan... my point is... it is not the fact that you can't get one it is the fact that the penalties are so high.... you coulda had the penalties without the ban (high penalties for gun crime but relatively easy access to handguns for subjects of the crown)  and the results would have been the same except......

you wouldn't have to hide under the bed when a trio of burglars broke into your house.

lazs

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2006, 03:08:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
you wouldn't have to hide under the bed when a trio of burglars broke into your house.

lazs


I've never been burgled (or threatened with a weapon, mugged etc). The worst thing thats happened to me is some toe-rag smashed a window on my car to get my radar detector.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2006, 03:11:21 PM »
My god - 173 in 2004 to 207 in 2005!!!!!

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2006, 03:41:14 PM »

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2006, 03:54:55 PM »
Well the fact is that most of you US guys are dead worried about personal safety, constantly talk about guns and how important they are for personal safety..

As for the rest of us.. we just couldn't care less. Aside from a hobby point they're utterly useless for me.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2006, 04:11:53 PM »
No we talk about guns because we like them.



Being able to have one for defense is a bonus.


I don't know one gun person here who ever said they worry about needing one.


We just demand all our rights and are glad we have the ability if we ever need it.

Offline Harry

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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2006, 04:30:15 PM »
Why do you like guns?

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2006, 04:40:36 PM »
Because they are fascinating mechanical marvels.

They are fun to shoot.

They are fun to modify.

They are fun to take apart.

Hell they are fun to build.

They are like Mini hotrods.

Offline mydavis

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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2006, 05:03:17 PM »
it is impossible to compare the US and england on the need for guns by the general population.

England is an island, much easier to control the borders, also it is much smaller. less people, and is more of a homogenous society.
Englands neighbors are nations that have been civilized longer and have had multiple wars (with thier neighbors) and armed revolts (to overthrow Corrupt goverments)
Which tend to reduce the violence for generations after that.
England does not have gangs and criminals come in from Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, etc.
England does not share a border with a terrorist haven like canada, (although france is trying hard to catch up)


All of these factors contribute to a smaller crime rate in general.

US has no controllable border. shorter history, much larger land mass. and because of this larger land mass, has no way to have an effective mass transit system.  It has gangs and criminals from many countries migrating here. We are a melting pot of different nationalities.
Our founding fathers instilled in our rights Quote
" the right to keep and bear arms which the rulers of the european countries are afraid to do"
The US has a standing army and the people are trained in the use of weapons both for thier individual protection and protection of freedoms around the world.

For this right and freedom, we do pay a price.
We also pay a price to protect the freedoms of the countries around the world. In fact lets count the number of times the boy scouts of the US had to fight back the hitler youth to protect England. Wasnt it twice in the same half century ?? and provided the only incentive for russia not to invade europe for 40 years.

Now everyone from Europe ....tell us how you dislike that Americans have guns and know how to use them ? and in the same sentence you can thank us for writing in english instead of german.
( Your Welcome  ! )

then lets ask the people of the world who americans have died defending thier freedoms ?

We are also a nation with much more land, so we do not have the benefit of having police right down the street.  So for most americans the access to law enforcement in a timely manner is not possible.
We also provide more than half of the worlds food.

Offline mydavis

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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2006, 05:05:22 PM »
PS
Im sure the people of Ireland who are under Englands control, are happy thier forefathers had no access to guns.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2006, 05:28:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mydavis
it is impossible to compare the US and england on the need for guns by the general population.

England is an island, much easier to control the borders, also it is much smaller. less people, and is more of a homogenous society.
Englands neighbors are nations that have been civilized longer and have had multiple wars (with thier neighbors) and armed revolts (to overthrow Corrupt goverments)
Which tend to reduce the violence for generations after that.
England does not have gangs and criminals come in from Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, etc.
England does not share a border with a terrorist haven like canada, (although france is trying hard to catch up)


All of these factors contribute to a smaller crime rate in general.

US has no controllable border. shorter history, much larger land mass. and because of this larger land mass, has no way to have an effective mass transit system.  It has gangs and criminals from many countries migrating here. We are a melting pot of different nationalities.
Our founding fathers instilled in our rights Quote
" the right to keep and bear arms which the rulers of the european countries are afraid to do"
The US has a standing army and the people are trained in the use of weapons both for thier individual protection and protection of freedoms around the world.

For this right and freedom, we do pay a price.
We also pay a price to protect the freedoms of the countries around the world. In fact lets count the number of times the boy scouts of the US had to fight back the hitler youth to protect England. Wasnt it twice in the same half century ?? and provided the only incentive for russia not to invade europe for 40 years.

Now everyone from Europe ....tell us how you dislike that Americans have guns and know how to use them ? and in the same sentence you can thank us for writing in english instead of german.
( Your Welcome  ! )

then lets ask the people of the world who americans have died defending thier freedoms ?

We are also a nation with much more land, so we do not have the benefit of having police right down the street.  So for most americans the access to law enforcement in a timely manner is not possible.
We also provide more than half of the worlds food.


The purpose of the "right to keep and bear arms" is to keep the Bloody British on their side of the pond. We fired our guns and the British kept a comin. There wasn't nye as many as there was a while ago. We fired once more and they began a runnin. On down the Mississipi to the Gulf of mexico.

Offline wrag

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It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline wrag

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It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline hyena426

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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2006, 06:20:11 PM »
Quote
As for the rest of us.. we just couldn't care less. Aside from a hobby point they're utterly useless for me.
sound just like my liberal freind i went camping with..i took my black powder 44 dragoon with me loaded..just in cass of bears..bucks..cougars..or misbehaving people..lol..when your 100miles from anyone..its nice to have some help...well he moaned about me packing that thing with us..till 2 days into the camping trip..a pack of hunting dogs ran across are camp in the middle of the night...suddenly a bunch of 4x4's pulled up and they started spot lighting are camp...they were freaked to see us up there so far..im sure they were illegaly hunting for bear....first thing my liberal freind said is..get your gun!! hurry!!..lol.after they rolled off from are camp..i laughed so hard tears were coming down my face..lol.i gave him crap about it all week...get your gun!! i would yell to him...he never touches them..but when somthing went down he was yelling for the thing he hated most..kinda ironic..lol

Quote
Well the fact is that most of you US guys are dead worried about personal safety,
so your saying people outside the US are not worried about there personal safety?  thats pure silly..lol...unless your crazy..there is not a person on this planet who is not worried about there safety...why lock your house? why worry about about guns? why go to the doctor? you must worry about somthing to make those kinda remarks as a fact..lol