Rate has doubled?

[wrag]

And the reason they believe it's growing?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article340224.ece

Sadly we've already been through all this in some areas of the U.S. and the answer for us doesn't seem to work for the Britts.............

What's really sad is sooooo many seem to ignore the warnings given by those from the past.

such as...........

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
W. R. Inge (1860-1954)
Dean of St. Paul's, London

"One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils of this world can be cured by legislation."
Thomas B. Reed (1839-1902)
American lawyer, politician

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
William Pitt English politician, prime minister.

"The great mass of people . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one."
Adolf Hitler (1889-1945)
German dictator

"The generality of men are naturally apt to be swayed by fear rather than reverence, and to refrain from evil rather because of the punishment that it brings than because of its own foulness."
Aristotle (384-322 bc)
Greek philosopher

"It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy, to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon a supposition that he may abuse it."
Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658)
lord protector of England

"Many politicians lay it down as a self-evident proposition that no people ought to be free until they are fit to use their freedom. The maxim is worthy of the fool in the old story who resolved not to go into the water until he had
learned to swim."
 from Lord Macaulay an English historian.

"I think that the sacredness of human life is a purely municipal ideal of no validity outside the jurisdiction. I believe that force, mitigated as far as may be by good manners, is the ultimate ratio, and between two groups of men
that want to make inconsistent kinds of world I see no remedy except force . . . It seems to me that every society rests on
the death of men."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935)
American jurist

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that did not. And each meekly inherit only an earthin plot............"

Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est. (A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands_ -- Lucius Seneca "The Younger" (ca 4BC - AD65)

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder

"The defense of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law." - James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, 1896

Hope I'm not the only one that notice's all the Brittish/English names within the above.

Also hope I'm not the only one that notice's some of the quotes are over 2000 years old!

Amazing isn't it?  We have known for over 2000 years how to deal with those that seek to harm others with little or NO justification.  And suddenly, within the last 50 years we have someone telling us it's all wrong and to do it their way.

We have known for over 2000 years!!!

2000 YEARS!

All this makes me think of the writtings of Tsun Tzu.

[lasersailor184]

I had heard that England (might have been scotland) have been telling the people how to act differently.


On their local police website, the police have advised people to no longer call out "Help me!" when in trouble, but to call out "Call the police!"


How true it is, I do not know.

[rshubert]

I read the article, and the prices for the Glocks seem about right fo a gun shop here in the States.  I wonder where they are coming in from?  They're made in Austria, a country that has pretty strict gun control.  

Hmmmmm....

[GtoRA2]

I am sure some english woman abuser will be here soon to tell you all how wrong you are.

[john9001]

Originally posted by wrag


"It will be found an unjust and unwise jealousy, to deprive a man of his natural liberty upon a supposition that he may abuse it."
Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658)
lord protector of England
 

cromwell was not refering to the Irish when he said that.

<>

In the summer of 1649, Cromwell was sent to Ireland with two objectives: to place it firmly under English control; to superintend the confiscation the land of all 'rebels' - as a result almost forty per cent of the land of Ireland was redistributed from Catholics born in Ireland to Protestants born in Britain. His first target was the town of Drogheda north of Dublin which he stormed and captured. Perhaps 2,500 men, mainly in arms, were killed during the storm and several hundred more - all the officers, all Catholic priests and friars, every tenth common soldier - were killed, many clubbed to death. It was in accordance with the laws of war, but it went far beyond what any General had done in England. Cromwell then perpetrated a messier massacre at Wexford.

[Vulcan]

Read the stats closely before making ASSumptions:

"Outside London, the figures also show a disturbing rise in the use of guns. In Bedfordshire, gun-related offences have risen by 20 per cent over the past two years, from 173 in 2004 to 207 in 2005. The number of cases where people were found carrying a gun more than doubled from 19 to 43 in the same period. There was also a rise in the number of stolen firearms seized - 18 compared with one the year before"

Look at the raw numbers, then compare with the USA.

[Pooh21]

but with guns banned the raw number should be 0?

[wrag]

Originally posted by Pooh21
but with guns banned the raw number should be 0?

OH????   How you figure????

MAYBE IF you ignore..................

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

[Meatwad]

Maybe they attack people with cricket paddles

[wrag]

Originally posted by john9001
cromwell was not refering to the Irish when he said that.

<>

In the summer of 1649, Cromwell was sent to Ireland with two objectives: to place it firmly under English control; to superintend the confiscation the land of all 'rebels' - as a result almost forty per cent of the land of Ireland was redistributed from Catholics born in Ireland to Protestants born in Britain. His first target was the town of Drogheda north of Dublin which he stormed and captured. Perhaps 2,500 men, mainly in arms, were killed during the storm and several hundred more - all the officers, all Catholic priests and friars, every tenth common soldier - were killed, many clubbed to death. It was in accordance with the laws of war, but it went far beyond what any General had done in England. Cromwell then perpetrated a messier massacre at Wexford.

Hmmm sad really.  To say such a thing but mean it only for your own people?

Think Edward/Longshanks was kinda that way as well.

An me been part Irish an all.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Pooh21
but with guns banned the raw number should be 0?

Guns aren't banned in the UK. Try again

[Toad]

True, only handguns are banned in Britain.

You can have some firearms if you have a "firearms certificate". Here's the general outlook on what you can and can't have:

The main control is the Firearms Act 1968, which divides firearms into four broad categories:

Prohibited Weapons under Section 5 of the Act. This includes machine guns,
most self-loading rifles, rocket-launchers, and weapons that “discharge any
noxious liquid, gas or other thing”. These can only be held under the authority of the Secretrary of State for Home Affairs, granted by the Home Office to those who have need to trade in or handle these weapons (e.g. defence manufacturers).

Following the Dunblane shootings, most handguns were raised to this category by the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997.

Firearms described in Section 1 of the Act may be held on a firearms certificate, which is issued by the local police. This includes most hunting and target rifles, long barrelled pump-action shotguns and muzzle-loading pistols. The police must be satisfied that the applicant can be trusted to possess firearms, and that he has a “good reason” for possessing them. Target shooting and game shooting are generally considered good reasons. Firearms certificates are not issued for selfdefence to residents of mainland Britain.

Shotguns described in Section 2 of the 1968 Act may be held on a shotgun
certificate, which is issued by the local police. Shotguns of this kind must be
long-barrelled and have a limited or no magazine. The police must be satisfied that the applicant can be trusted to have a shotgun, but the applicant does not have to prove that he has a particular good reason to possess the gun. Shotguns of this kind are commonly used for vermin control, game shooting, and for shooting at clay targets.

Low-powered air guns, that is to say guns with a muzzle energy of less than 6ft/1bs for pistols and 12 ft/1bs for other guns, are not subject to certificate control, though there are controls on their use by young people.

A firearms certificate takes just a bit of paperwork.

The advice given here is general, but is believed to be correct as of December 2003, it will be updated as required by changes to the law.

A Firearms Certificate (FAC) is required before you can purchase, or posses any firearm, ammunition, or certain parts of a firearm, e.g. a spare barrel. It is important that any prospective applicant reads fully the section on Gun Law before attempting to apply.

There are two main ways that civilians can obtain an FAC:

a) if they can demonstrate that they have shooting rights over suitable land.

b) if they can demonstrate membership of a target shooting club, such as Marple Rifle and Pistol Club (MRPC).

What follows assumes membership of a target shooting club.

In order to become a full member of MRPC a prospective member must join the club as a probationary member and complete a minimum of 18 visits in a 6 month time period. To join the club it is necessary to both pay the subscription fee and complete an application form giving the names and addresses of two referees who have known the  applicant for at least two years. A part of the application includes a signed declaration that the applicant is not debarred from firearms use or possession. After the end of this probationary period, subject to satisfactory behaviour and no adverse reports from any source, membership will be confirmed at the next committee meeting.

After membership has been confirmed an FAC can be applied for. The Police will not entertain any application that is not confirmed by the club secretary, so it is a waste of time trying before full membership is granted.

When the FAC application is is received by the police (you get the form from them) along with the necessary fee, they will make an appointment with you to come and inspect your home and security arrangements for storing the firearms and ammunition.

When applying for the FAC it is worth while specifying more guns than you need, this is to allow the purchase of a new gun, before the sale of an old gun has gone through. There is no limit as to the number of guns or quantity of ammunition you can ask for, but the more you want, the more security the police may insist on before granting the FAC.

Basically they will expect a steel cabinet of at least 16 swg bolted to the floor and / or wall and secured with 5 lever lock(s). Connection to an alarm would be a bonus and in some locations may be a requirement. If your premises has shared access, for example if it is in a block of flats, the requirements may be more stringent.

It is worth remembering that unless anyone else living at your address has an FAC listing your guns, then that person cannot legally handle them even in the home.

If you are intending to reload centrefire ammunition, rather surprisingly you do not need an FAC to buy any of the components. An FAC is only needed to make and keep assembled ammunition. You must specify on your application how many rounds you intend to have at any one time. It is not necessary to enter any details of your home reloaded ammunition, or how many times you reload. The only requirement is that you do not exceed your maximum holding in your specified calibres at any one time.

A part of the application form is to specify the names and addresses of two referees that are willing to support your application for an FAC. There are restrictions as to who can act as a referee, family members being barred as is anyone with a criminal record. It is not possible to have your application supported by two members of your club, you must find independent referees who are willing to complete a questionnaire about you and return it directly to the police (so that you cannot see what they have written).

The best advice to any new FAC applicant is to ask existing members for advice before filling out the application form.

oh..yeah..

New as of 20 January 2004: It is now an offence to posses any rifle, pistol, or other form of air gun that uses a self-contained gas cartridge system, for example the Brocock type of revolver. Such guns are now classed as Section 1 firearms.

[john9001]

1776,

british major<<" sir the colonials have gathered powder and shot in a town called concord"

british general<<< " bloody hell, fall in the troops , we will march up there and take it off them"

[lazs2]

It is estimated that there are between 300,000 and half a million illegal handguns in england at this time... more are smuggled in all the time.

this is more than enough to feed all the criminals that might want to use a gun.   I have said many times that if I wanted to.... I bet I could be the illegal owner of a handgun in england a week after stepping off the plane.

So why aren't their more gun crimes?   Why weren't there more when handguns were pretty much unrestricted?

Seems that the penalties for gun crimes have a far bigger effect (and social reasons) than any law that bans or makes available handguns (or any other gun)

Up till recently a brit could leave the insane asylum and go buy the most deadly short range firearm in existence... a shotgun... social pressures and penalties were the only thing stopping said nutcase from using it to slaughter his fellow subjects.

Here... we have combined tougher penalties for gun crime with allowing more guns to be held by the law abiding citizen to achieve a lowering of our crime and homicide rates.

lazs

[Nashwan]

It is estimated that there are between 300,000 and half a million illegal handguns in england at this time.

Estimated by whom?

this is more than enough to feed all the criminals that might want to use a gun.

It probably would be if it bore any relation to reality.

Operation trident is the London police team set up to combat firearms crime among the black community. They boast:

    *  420 firearms seized
    * 1839 rounds of ammunition seized
    * 217 kilos of class A drugs seized
    * £586,024 in cash seized

However, of the 420 firearms seized, over 70% were replicas, toys or blank firers.

The press, and police and politicians, rarely differentiate between replicas and real guns, because they get good publicity by seizing "guns", and because talking up the number of guns makes good publicity and brings in more resources for the police.

Take for example this press release from the Trident team, from 11th Jan:

Eight arrested and guns taken off the streets in Trident new year blitz

The Met's Operation Trident has got off to a flying start this year after arresting eight people and recovering 32 firearms during three separate proactive operations to combat gun crime.

Trident's proactive south team searched two addresses in Sussex and Derbyshire during an intelligence-led operation. Thirteen imitation and deactivated guns, including a Mac 10, were seized from the address in Castle Gresley, Derbyshire, and a 30-year-old man was arrested. A further 17 imitation and deactivated firearms were recovered from the address in East Grinstead, Sussex, and a 21-year-old man was arrested. Both men have been released on police bail pending further inquiries.

Officers from Trident's proactive north team, assisted by colleagues from CO19 Specialist Firearms Unit, recovered a 7.65 calibre automatic self-loaded pistol and three rounds of live ammunition in Oakdale Road, Streatham, at 2.20pm on Monday. Three men, aged 25, 26 and 27, were arrested and remain in custody at two south London police stations.

Two hours later in nearby Mitcham Road, Streatham, the proactive north team and CO19 recovered a 38 revolver with ten rounds of ammunition during an intelligence-led operation. Three men - aged 18, 23 and 46 - were arrested at the scene and are in custody at a north-west London police station.
http://cms.met.police.uk/news/arrests_and_charges/eight_arrested_and_guns_taken_off_the_streets_in_trident_new_year_blitz

So the "32 firearms" turned out to be 1 7.65mm pistol with 3 rounds, 1 38 revolver with ten rounds, and 30 things that look like guns but aren't.

The last firearms crime figures released were published in October last year. Fatal injuries from firearms crime had fallen 14%, the number of handguns used in crimes fell 8%, the number of shotguns 13%. Crimes involving imitation weapons went up 28%.