Author Topic: Rate has doubled?  (Read 5030 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #180 on: January 31, 2006, 09:08:50 AM »
Well at least we have that in common lazs. :D
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Toad

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« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2006, 10:42:00 AM »
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Originally posted by straffo
The treaty is one of the reason ,not the reason , I'm convinced WWII would have happen with or without.


Then you would agree that US ratification or non-ratification of the ToV made no difference either way. Thanks.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2006, 01:09:15 PM »
Well I didn't even adressed this point :)

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #183 on: January 31, 2006, 02:01:30 PM »
Sorry Toad, but you're still wrong.  Wilson and Lodge may have been at odds over The League of Nations but they still had a common view on America's moral role in guarding the peace after WW2, just differing views of how to fulfil that role. To quote Lodge:

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Our first ideal is our country, and we see her in the future, as in the past, giving service to all her people and to the world. Our ideal of the future is that she should continue to render that service of her own free will....Our ideal is to make her ever stronger and better and finer, because in that way alone, as we believe, can she be of the greatest service to the world's peace and to the welfare of mankind.


Lodge actually saw the US as having a role in enforcing the subsequent peace; he just thought that such a role would be better served outside of the League.

Your opinion is at odds with Wilson and at odds with Lodge. Your legal objections are baseless since the separate treaties with the Central Powers allowed for you to participate in the enforcement of the peace. All you are left with is your desire to hold France and Great Britain to a standard to which you are unwilling to hold the USA. That is it. Keep arguing on defence of a double standard; it won't be the first time. ;)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #184 on: January 31, 2006, 09:28:46 PM »
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Originally posted by Momus--
Your legal objections are baseless since the separate treaties with the Central Powers allowed for you to participate in the enforcement of the peace.  


You do so like to tell only your side of the story don't you. "Allowed" has nothing..repeat nothing... in common with "obligated". We were free to choose and we were not bound to do anything at all.

Tough for your argument but there it is.

To wit:

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(2) That the United States shall not be bound by the provisions of Part I of that Treaty, nor by any provisions of that Treaty including those mentioned in paragraph (I) of this Article, which relate to the Covenant of the League of Nations, nor shall the United States be bound by any action taken by the League of Nations, or by the Council or by the Assembly thereof, unless the United States shall expressly give its assent to such action.

(3) That the United States assumes no obligations under or with respect to the provisions of Part II, Part III, Sections 2 to 8 inclusive of Part IV, and Part XIII of that Treaty.

(4) That, while the United States is privileged to participate in the Reparation Commission, according to the terms of Part VIII of that Treaty, and in any other Commission established under the Treaty or under any agreement supplemental thereto, [the United States is not bound to participate in any such commission unless it shall elect to do so.



See any common elements in the Treaty with Germany there? I bet even you see them.

We were not bound, not obliged to do ANYTHING we didn't want to do in any way shape or form.

I know that's just an incredibly foreign thought for a lot of Euros but it's the truth.

And, it's historically obvious that the US wanted no part of European entanglements after the war. The end of WW1 began a period of isolationism that lasted until the Japanese attack at Pearl.

So it's historically correct that the US had NO OBLIGATIONS with respect to the Treaty of Versailles other than those we freely chose to accept or do. It's also historically correct that the vast majority of the US public became even more isolationist after WW1. Particular evidence of this is the passage of the Neutrality Acts here as the war clouds gathered over Europe for the second time.

The pyromaniacs got out of hand once again; their own fire departments couldn't handle the blaze. Once again, the fire department half a world away had to be called.

That last time you got what you wanted. A US that decided it HAD to enforce the peace or there would be yet another world war in Pyromania.

How are you liking the way it's turning out now?  :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Harry

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« Reply #185 on: February 01, 2006, 11:12:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The comment you quoted:

 

You will notice I was discussing your possible motives, and if you think that comment is an insult, you may consider investing in a new dictionary.


While “discussing my motives” you brought up “winning” this argument. Clearly an indication as to how you “discuss”. Your post did not add anything to the discussion or provide any facts. It was just a jab at me, a crude insult.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #186 on: February 01, 2006, 11:50:40 PM »
If I wanted to insult you, I would have said something like, ""I don't know what makes you so dumb but it really works!"  Please note that I did not do that.

What I did was suggest (not at all crudely) that your argument was without merit.  This is not an insult.
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #187 on: February 02, 2006, 06:46:22 PM »
Toad - the Versailles treaty was not the primary reason for the rise of the Nazis. There was no singular reason. It wasn't until the Wall Street Crash and the subsequent bankruptcy of the German middle classes that the Nazis gained popular support. The election results say it all. Hitler promised the earth, and the people in their desperation fell for it. Prior to this, the Nazis were a fringe extremist party.

So, you need both the Versailles Treaty and the Crash for Hitler's rise to executive power.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #188 on: February 02, 2006, 09:00:04 PM »
Yes, Dowding, that is one of the scholarly opinions out there.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline B@tfinkV

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« Reply #189 on: February 02, 2006, 09:44:34 PM »
I'm so very happy that finally a thread has been made to house all the pro-gun/anti-gun nutters.


the O'club has halved its thread numbers since this post.


well done.
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #190 on: February 03, 2006, 09:20:10 AM »
Then welcome to the house, anti-gun nutter.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #191 on: February 03, 2006, 10:04:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 20% of all bombers and 16% of all fighters and 29% of all naval aircraft.

 


Not to mention  some of their leading air aces flew the P39 and racked up some 250+ or so kills. Their mechanics pretty much worked miracles keeping them flying in weather they were not designed for. And the rooskies re-invented tactics that made the P39 a sucsess where it had failed elswhere.

Leand Lease kept the Russians in the game there really can't be any doubt of that.