Author Topic: Rate has doubled?  (Read 5038 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #150 on: January 28, 2006, 04:46:16 PM »
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Originally posted by Harry
No, the US won the Pacific War at Pearl Harbor on the 7th of December 1941.


We sure spent a lot of time, money, and lives on a war that we already won.

I wonder if we won the war on terror on Sept. 11 2001?

You have an interesting, if somewhat flawed, view of history.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #151 on: January 28, 2006, 04:59:13 PM »
Wrag, lazs..

If you would have had to fight the way we did in order to maintain independence and our land, you would probably think different too.

Studies show that Finland is the least corrupted country in the world. We can trust our police and to some extent, politicians too. Unlike your society where money rules everything, here things still go in somewhat democratic way. Instead of arming ourselves and forming militia we go to the voting ballots.

Finland has a good balance in society, a good social security network, free education etc etc. I find it a very nice place to grow my children in, knowing that they can study regardless of my financial situation, knowing they won't be subjected to junkies at every other corner, knowing that if I became disabled or dead, their well being would always be covered - no fear of going to the streets.

If I had to dig for real downsides to living here I'd say high taxing and having Russia as our neighbour would be the two biggest downsides.
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Offline Harry

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« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2006, 05:07:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
We sure spent a lot of time, money, and lives on a war that we already won.

I wonder if we won the war on terror on Sept. 11 2001?

You have an interesting, if somewhat flawed, view of history.



Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
We sure spent a lot of time, money, and lives on a war that we already won.


At what point did the US stand a chance of losing the Pacific War? Never. It was a forgone conclusion. That does not mean you don't have to work for it.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I wonder if we won the war on terror on Sept. 11 2001?


Perhaps. It surly was a turning point in the way terrorism is perceived and dealt with. Whether or not it was the time the "war on terror" was won can only be determined after the conflict is over.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You have an interesting, if somewhat flawed, view of history.


You're mistaking complex for flawed. The notion that wars are won when the enemy surrenders/are defeated is simplistic and false. The outcome of every war always comes down to one battle. Be it Waterloo, Gettysburg, Moscow or Pearl Harbor, that's where the course of the war was determined and ultimately if the war was won or lost. The rest was just as you put it: "Mopping up".

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #153 on: January 28, 2006, 05:16:41 PM »
Name a war that was won without defeating an enemy.

Like I say... flawed

Just because Karpov is a great chess player doesn't mean that I could not get lucky and defeat him.  Obviously the chances against it are astronomical, but you still have to move the pieces.
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Offline Harry

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« Reply #154 on: January 28, 2006, 05:59:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Name a war that was won without defeating an enemy.


I could name many, but let’s pick one you surly must be familiar with. The American war of independence. You won the war, but the British Empire wasn’t defeated, they’re still around.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Just because Karpov is a great chess player doesn't mean that I could not get lucky and defeat him.  Obviously the chances against it are astronomical, but you still have to move the pieces.


Yes and after the match I’m sure Karpov could tell you exactly what move lost you the game. In fact I’m pretty sure Karpov would say “checkmate in [inset number] moves” during the match at the point where you could do nothing but react to his attacks, and the outcome would be as definitive as it would be inevitable.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #155 on: January 28, 2006, 08:32:52 PM »
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Originally posted by Harry
I could name many, but let’s pick one you surly must be familiar with. The American war of independence. You won the war, but the British Empire wasn’t defeated, they’re still around.


A defeat does not mean complete destruction.  When Cornwallis offered his surrender to the American Army, the British colonial presence was defeated, hence the American Victory.

Quote
Originally posted by Harry
No, the US won the Pacific War at Pearl Harbor on the 7th of December 1941.


If you really feel that the USA won the war on that date, when it suffered a great loss of men and material, then perhaps by your definition, you have won this arguement.
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Offline Rolex

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« Reply #156 on: January 28, 2006, 08:50:18 PM »
Ding!

That's the end of round one. The fighters move off to their corners and we'll take a short commercial break. This looks like it could be the longest World Semantic Boxing fight in decades, so don't change that channel!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 08:52:59 PM by Rolex »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #157 on: January 28, 2006, 09:10:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Harry
At what point did the US stand a chance of losing the Pacific War? Never. It was a forgone conclusion. That does not mean you don't have to work for it.


Ah. I see. So Germany lost WW2 when it invaded Poland. Gotcha.

:rofl
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #158 on: January 28, 2006, 09:13:56 PM »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2006, 06:09:16 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry, Chum.

In March 1920 the US Senate finally killed the Versailles treaty. The United States did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles and we did not join the League of Nations.

No ratification by Congress, no treaty by/with the US. No treaty, no obligations or responsibilities to "enforce the subsequent peace".

 



Words.  As a victorious power in WW1 you had a moral responsibility the equal of France or Britain to ensure that the Central Powers abode by the terms of Versailles. Just because the Senate lacked the political fortitude and foresight to stand by Wilson doesn't excuse that any more than French or British desires to avoid another war excuses their attitude in 1936.  Senate didn't like it? YOUR problem. Want to take credit for ending the great war but none of the blame when the peace didn't hold? Can you say double standard? Yes, of course you can, "chum".

Interesting that you try and hide behind subsequent treaties that were ratified by Congress. Referring to the seperate peace treaty signed with Germany after the Senate welched on the Treaty of Versailles, you'll note:

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...there are expressly reserved to the United States of America and its nationals any and all rights, privileges, indemnities, reparations, or advantages, together with the right to enforce the same, to which it or they have become entitled under the terms of the armistice signed November 11, 1918..


The treaties with Austria and Hungary contain similar clauses as well.

So in actual fact, there were no legal constraints actually preventing you from enforcing the Peace along with the other Allies, just the same absence of will that afflicted the other victorious powers.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2006, 07:27:52 AM by Momus-- »

Offline Harry

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« Reply #160 on: January 29, 2006, 08:43:36 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Ah. I see. So Germany lost WW2 when it invaded Poland. Gotcha.

:rofl


No they still had a pretty good chance at the battle for Moscow, but after they lost there was nothing that they could do to win the war. The Japanese never had a chance to win the war.

You know I'm right, but you'll never admit it. I can live with that.

Offline Harry

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« Reply #161 on: January 29, 2006, 04:17:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If you really feel that the USA won the war on that date, when it suffered a great loss of men and material, then perhaps by your definition, you have won this arguement.


No. Considering you now quite clearly state that you argue to "win" rather than come to an agreement, you will never admit I'm right, but rather offer crude insults when you run out of valid arguments. Debating with you is pointless, so I guess I never had a chance to "win" this argument.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #162 on: January 29, 2006, 04:30:10 PM »
Please quote me where I "quite clearly state" or where I insulted you.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #163 on: January 29, 2006, 08:06:23 PM »
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Originally posted by Harry
You know I'm right, but you'll never admit it. I can live with that.


Nah, I know you're wrong but you'll never admit it. Don't bother me a lick, either.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #164 on: January 29, 2006, 08:35:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
As a victorious power in WW1 you had a moral responsibility the equal of France or Britain to ensure that the Central Powers abode by the terms of Versailles.
[/b]

We most certainly DID NOT. We didn't start it, we didn't want to be in it and we wanted OUT of the whole area as soon as it was over. Even after the 15 Lodge reservations the treaty was defeated 49-35 in the Senate. They merely reflected the views of the people of the US, who were isolationist before WW1 and became even MORE isolationist after WW1.

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Disgust was deepening. Hundreds of thousands of American boys were returning from Europe, irritated by cheating French shopkeepers, and most favorably impressed by the blonde German girls. American's everywhere were saying that Europe could jolly well "stew in its own juice." In the face of such wide spread disillusionment Wilson would have troubles in arousing people again.


-Thomas A. Bailey, Historian


Our leaders had a moral responsibility to OUR people to do what the people desired which was to end foreign entanglements.

 
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Want to take credit for ending the great war but none of the blame when the peace didn't hold? Can you say double standard? Yes, of course you can, "chum".
[/b]

Well, Chum, it wasn't the US that crafted a "peace that didn't hold". The only chance there was of a lasting peace was in Wilson's 14 points. Neither France nor Britain were interested in Wilson's plan, were they?

As for taking credit, can you say 2nd Battle of the Marne?

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The German Commander quoted:

...All [German] divisions [along the Marne] achieved brilliant successes, with the exception of the one division on our right wing. This encountered American units! Here only did the Seventh Army, In the course of the first day of the offensive, confront serious difficulties. It met with the unexpectedly stubborn and active resistance of fresh American troops.

While the rest of the divisions of the Seventh Army succeeded in gaining ground and gaining tremendous booty, it proved impossible for us to move the right apex of our line, to the south of the Marne, into a position advantageous for the development of the ensuing fight. The check we thus received was one result of the stupendous fighting between our 10th Division of infantry and American troops...

Erich von Ludendorff, Quartermaster General





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So in actual fact, there were no legal constraints actually preventing you from enforcing the Peace along with the other Allies, just the same absence of will that afflicted the other victorious powers.


No. There were no legal obligations for the US to enforce the Peace along with the other Allies.

I think this is a fundamental difference between Euros and Americans and it plays into the later "late joining WW2" comments we always hear.

Apparently Euros feel the Americans were somehow obligated to help them in both wars rather than the true fact that we had absolutely no obligations, no treaties, no agreements whatsoever to join European wars.

This despite the fact that even a cursory study of US history in the years before WWI and the intervening years between WWI and WWII show the US to be extremely isolationist.

Again: An isolationist nation with no treaties or agreements that would obligate participation in European wars of conquest.

It's like Europe was a bunch of pyromaniacs that expected a fire department from halfway around the world to bail them out everytime their fires got out of hand. The US wanted no part of it pre-WWI, post-WWI and pre-WW2.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2006, 08:40:16 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!