Author Topic: Rate has doubled?  (Read 5170 times)

Offline Harry

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« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2006, 03:30:08 PM »
Bingo! So why are we arguing again?

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2006, 05:09:38 PM »
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I also belive that you have no right to tell your countrymen what to do ion either case.


I have a right because if some retard doesn't wear his seatbelt for no reason whatsoever except for being negligent and dumb, I'm going to pay for his medicare and rehab from my tax money. There is not a single justifiable reason not to wear a seatbelt. Period.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2006, 07:12:30 PM »
MrRipley

I have a stepdaughter, she came into my life when she was 12. She was shown where it was, what it was, warned that it was loaded. Taught how to load, unload & use it.  She wanted nothing else to do with it, which is fine.
But she knew that


She only saw the wrong end of it once when she was 16. Said she wouldn't be home that night, as she was staying at a friends. I heard the door open a bit after midnight, then noises in the kitchen.  When I flipped on the lights she found herself looking down the wrong end of ol betsy.

Now, if plans change or if its after 10 at night she calls first, lets us know she's coming.  :)

Education is the key.
BTW I taught firearm safety in Minnesota for 15 years

Grin

Granted with small children its tougher. For years as a child I was  not allowed into our parents bedroom unless one of them was there. Didn't find out till years later it was because dad had a shotgun by the dresser.

But then people don't teach their children nowdays. They would rather remove the problem from the scenario than take the time to educate.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2006, 09:36:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Harry
Well I’m sure that’s how you learned history. However in the real world Germany declared war on you first and attacked you after the Japanese attack on PH. The USA was forced into WWII after the rest of the world had been fighting the Axis for more than two years.


I am unaware of the German attack on the USA; please enlighten me.  

You may also note that Japan had been fighting in China since 1931.  It makes me wonder why we think the war started with the invasion of Poland.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2006, 10:46:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You may also note that Japan had been fighting in China since 1931.  It makes me wonder why we think the war started with the invasion of Poland.


Makes me wonder why the Euros were so late arriving to help the Chinese. ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline straffo

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« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2006, 11:51:45 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It makes me wonder why we think the war started with the invasion of Poland.


Actually I wonder how many think WWII started 7/12/1941.



Following your logic the cold war started in February 1919.

Offline Harry

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« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2006, 01:32:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I am unaware of the German attack on the USA; please enlighten me.  


War against America
With the japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbour on Dec 7, 1941 Hitler was bound by a promise to Japan to also declare war on the US. He did so promptly on Dec 11 and after that all restrictions on German U-boats (which had been attacked and hunted by US convoy escorts in the North Atlantic for the last 5-6 months of 1941 anyway without permission to attack the US escorts) not to attack American shipping were removed. This opened up a whole new field for Dönitz which immediately drew up plans for a devastatingly swift blow on the US eastern seaboard.
Dönitz wanted to strike with 12 type IX boats, the only boats capable of cruising that far. But he was forced to reduce that number to 6 boats due to other engagements of Hitler's preferences of the Gibraltar area. One of the 6 boats marked for this opertation, U-128 was in need of urgent repairs and could not make it in time. Thus only 5 boats sailed.




The drumbeaters disembark
U-125 (Folkers) was the first to sail on 18 Dec, 1941, followed by U-123 (Hardegen) on the 23rd and U-66 (Zapp) on the 24th, finally the last two of the Paukenschlag boats, U-130 (Kals) and U-109 (Bleichrodt) sailed together on the 27th. It would take then just over 2 weeks to reach US waters. They were under strict orders not to attack anything on the outbound cruise unless a especially attractive target was located (this meant a big warship like a cruiser, carrier or a battleship, but like Dönitz said "We never let a 10,000 tonner pass us by").

First torpedoes strike
All the boats were to be in position on Jan 13 and begin their attacks at the same time on that date. However, U-123 sank the first ship, the SS Cyclops on the 11th and Kals in U-130 sank two ships the next two days and after that they fell more than one a day as far south as the Cape Hatteras.
The Drumbeat boats ended operations of the coast of America on Feb 6 and headed home. They sank 25 ships for a total of 156,939 tons. Hardegen (U-123) sank 9 ships for a total of 53,173 tons.




America operations continued
This may surprise many of you but Operation Drumbeat really was just the inital wave of 5 large U-boats, Paukenschlag was meant to be a fast and surprise attack on the eastern seaboard of the US, and it succeeded as such. Then there were several other "waves" of U-boats that went into American waters but those don't really count as Drumbeaters.
By the time the Paukenschlag were returning to their French bases in February the next wave of boats had already hit hard In the following waves came many of Germany's most experienced commanders like Topp (U-552), Hardegen in U-123 again, Witt (U-129), Degen (U-701), Schnee (U-201), Mohr (U-124) and Lassen (U-160) to name a few.

In order to make the journey, even with the Milkcow support, some of the smaller VII boats even sacrificed large portion of their drinking water and put diesel fuel in the tanks instead.


Refueling from the Milkcows
During early May the Milkcow U-459 refueled 15 U-boats northwest of Bermuda and thus greatly extended the range and patrol time of the fighting boats, Type IX by 8 weeks and type VII by 4 weeks. This also gave Dönitz the option of attacking much further south than previously possible.
Gulf of Mexico
U-507 (Schacht) sank the first ship in the Gulf of Mexico on May 4, 1942 when he torpedoed the 2,686ton freighter Norlindo west-northwest of Key West. During the rest of May a ship would be lost roughly every day. The last ship to be sunk in the Gulf went down on 4 September.

The Caribbean
Convoy systems were started in the Caribbean in July, this convoy system was more complex than the one established on the US seaboard but it still required the assistance of British and Canadian corvettes. 20 ships were sunk in the waters of Panama. See map of U-boat losses in the Caribbean here.

Convoy system started
In middle of May the US finally started running convoys on the east coast, over 4 months too late. They proved to be effective right from the start like the British had known for more than 2 years at that time and had told the US Navy command again and again.

On 19 July Dönitz withdrew the last two boats operating of Cape Hatteras, U-754 and U-458, and 8 days later he shifted the effort back into the North Atlantic where it had all began and would eventually end.




The statistics
During the first 6 months of the German U-boat offensive out of the US east coast some 397 ships totalling over 2 million tons were sunk, costing roughly 5000 lives. In the process only 7 U-boats (U-85, U-352, U-157, U-158, U-701, U-153 and U-576) were lost. There were only survivors from U-352 (33) and U-701 (7), the rest went down with all hands. 302 Germans were lost on these 7 boats."



Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You may also note that Japan had been fighting in China since 1931.  It makes me wonder why we think the war started with the invasion of Poland.


China didn't have any defense treaties so it was just a Japanese-Chinese conflict. Poland had defense treaties with Britain and France. This is why the German invasion of Poland started World War II.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2006, 02:55:22 AM »
So the Germans attacked first on January 11th, a full month after we decared war on them on Dec 11th, just hours after they declared war on us.  

Got it.  But then they were attacking shipping in the western approches to the UK for years before that, and much of that shipping was American.

370,000 Chinese killed in Nanking alone in '37, and still just a Japan China thing...

The Japanese invasion of Manchuria and the war mobilization efforts attempted to create a strong empire which could eventually compete with the world powers of the Soviet Union, the United States, the UK, and France, all of which had Pacific and Asian interests.  It was a move on the world, not just a regional, stage.
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Offline Harry

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« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2006, 03:30:21 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So the Germans attacked first on January 11th, a full month after we decared war on them on Dec 11th, just hours after they declared war on us.  


Germany declared war on you and attacked USN ships in the Atlantic on December 11th 1941.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
370,000 Chinese killed in Nanking alone in '37, and still just a Japan China thing...


Yes.


Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Japanese invasion of Manchuria and the war mobilization efforts attempted to create a strong empire which could eventually compete with the world powers of the Soviet Union, the United States, the UK, and France, all of which had Pacific and Asian interests.  It was a move on the world, not just a regional, stage.


"Eventually", "woulda, shoulda, coulda". You're talking hypotheticals, I'm talking facts. Two nations fighting a regional conflict is not a world war, and before that conflict had time to escalate the Germans started WWII by going to war against three world-spanning empires.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2006, 05:00:09 AM »
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Originally posted by Harry
First torpedoes strike
All the boats were to be in position on Jan 13 and begin their attacks at the same time on that date. However, U-123 sank the first ship, the SS Cyclops on the 11th



Quote
Originally posted by Harry
Germany declared war on you and attacked USN ships in the Atlantic on December 11th 1941.


So according to you, the first torpedos were sent on December 11, 1941 and January 11, 1942.

okie dokie....
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Offline Harry

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« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2006, 06:09:16 AM »
Those were the first shots fired in Operation Paukenschlag, not the war.


Quote
Originally posted by Harry
War against America
With the japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbour on Dec 7, 1941 Hitler was bound by a promise to Japan to also declare war on the US. He did so promptly on Dec 11 and after that all restrictions on German U-boats (which had been attacked and hunted by US convoy escorts in the North Atlantic for the last 5-6 months of 1941 anyway without permission to attack the US escorts) not to attack American shipping were removed.


On December 11th 1941 German U-boats were given free reign the Atlantic against American shipping (not only those in British convoys).



Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So according to you, the first torpedos were sent on December 11, 1941 and January 11, 1942.

okie dokie....


No. I don't know the exact date the first torpedo was fired after unrestricted submarine warfare against US vessels was declared on December 11th, but if not on the 11th then surely within days.

US ships had been sunk before, but contrary to popular belief the sinking of a civilian ship is not an act of war if the ship is in a war zone and actively supporting a contestant. The only act of war perpetrated by Germany against USA prior to 11th December 1941 was the accidental sinking by U-562 of the USS Ruben James on the 31st of October 1941.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2006, 06:26:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Makes me wonder why the Euros were so late arriving to help the Chinese. ;)


They weren't, Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia both gave aid to the Chinese well before anyone else did.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2006, 06:50:10 AM »
In the, Merchant Marine, December 41, 82 attacks on ships are tallied. Only one in the N Atlantic; the Astral a tanker which was sunk on Dec 1.

In January 42, 31 ships lost, about half in the N Atlantic, the first being the General Richard Arnold, a minelayer, on January 8 capsized and sunk.  The next N Atlantic loss was on the Friar Rock on the 13th.
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Offline wrag

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« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2006, 08:10:41 AM »
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Wrag: It is allowed to protect your proprety by force, just not by deadly force.

For example if someone would break in my car, I have a right to use necessary force to detain the perp. It means that I can bang him in the head with a flashlight if he resists citizens arrest.

But if I pull a gun on him (and he's not armed himself) I will be taken to court most likely for violation of firearms legislation. The argument is that material things are not just cause to threaten someones life, even if he's a perp.

Now this is one of the things I hate in our country. The lawmakers give way too many priviledges to criminals. Just couple weeks ago a cop was taken to court for shooting and wounding a store robber. He tried to run over the cop with his getaway car. That is seriously messed up IMO even if it will never pass in court.

As a sidenote, in Italy people really need that kind of a thing - they not only have the mafia to worry about but a rampant thievery problem.

An italian friend of mine said many times that a good place to test your car alarm is to take it to italy. If it's top of the line it will take 5 minutes for the car to disappear instead of 3. :D


I read your reply.  Yet.....................

I had to pause.  Thus the length of time in responding has been, well a while.

I have soooo much trouble with that reply.   Is that the OFFICAL response given by those that govern you?

If it is then IMHO............


NO!!!!!

You may not bang anyone over the head with anything.  

NO!!!!!!!!!

You may not defend your property.

It's really quite simple you know!

Banging someone over the head is and can be construed as, in a court of law, attempted MUDDER!   AKA assualt with intent............

Should you in defending your property, or your family, or your own life, bang someone over the head too hard and they die then you SIR  have used DEADLY FORCE!

Banging someone over the head can make them very dead!  For that matter hitting them with anything, even you fist can result in death.  SoOOOOooo give it up, you may NOT use deadly force!

IMHO the people of your country are being treated in a manner that makes me think of kindergarteners.

NO little Billy you may not hit little Charlie!  What's that little Billy?, he took your crumpet?  That does not matter, you may not use violence little Billy.  What's that little Billy?  He was vilolent 1st?  Well I didn't see it little Billy so you will leave little Charlie alone this instant!

Sad so sad...............  and we, the whole world, have known for so many years.

"He was one of those men who think that the world can be saved by writing a pamphlet."
Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881)
English prime minister

"Next to the right of liberty, the right of property is the most important individual right guaranteed by the Constitution and the one which, united with that of personal liberty, has contributed more to the growth of civilization than any other institution established by the human race."
William Howard Taft (1857-1930)
American president

These words mean little to those that govern you???

"The generality of men are naturally apt to be swayed by fearrather than reverence, and to refrain from evil rather becauseof the punishment that it brings than because of its own foulness."
Aristotle (384-322 bc)
Greek philosopher

What does the criminal have to fear in your country?  What is the punishment?  Jail time?

What do you do if there is more then one perp?

Perhaps your nation is being used for some sort of social experament?
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2006, 08:15:28 AM »
so ripley... if it costs you money then it is allright for you to take away other peoples rights?

Another good reason to not have socialized medicine.

harry... I have no idea in what paradise of low crime that you live in.  I can tell you however that lack of firearms is not making it so that you can leave your doors unlocked in your major cities.   If you have something of value someone will steal it if you leave it lying around... if that is not true in your country then you do not fit into the worldwide stats.   and... you are at the very least, a country with very little ethnic mixing.

name your country and we will look at it's crime stats and see if you are full of it or not.

lazs