Author Topic: Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release  (Read 10792 times)

Offline Krusty

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #165 on: February 19, 2006, 05:31:34 PM »
Bug, I got nothing against ya, but here's the quote I was thinking of.

Quote

Its getting biased and unrespectfull looks like some still regret the LW lost the war.

Sigh

The LW was a tool of the nazi's nothing to be proud of.
I just like the allied conqoured freedom sorry guys.

[snip]

get a grip wabbles.


You are basically claiming we all regret that the LW lost the war, and are indirectly equating us with neo-nazis that never accepted the truth about the war.

I generally have no quabbles with you, but this didn't sit well with me.

Offline gatt

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Re: Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #166 on: February 19, 2006, 05:33:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
...?


Back on topic. Judging from the Spitfire/La/Niki cheerleaders replies and (more important of course) official replies I'd say: NO!
Dont worry, we'll carry on with shooting down dweebmounts with our dark side irons, we leather dressed wanna-be :D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 05:36:25 PM by gatt »
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Offline Sable

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #167 on: February 19, 2006, 07:15:36 PM »
The idea that numbers alone were responsible for the defeat of the LW in the west is really a myth.  Obviously numbers played a part (as they do in all battles), but not as big of one as people would tend to think.  The allies had a massive numerical advantage in aircraft on the western front from 1941 onward as the Luftwaffe transferred aircraft to the eastern and mediterranean fronts.  In 1941 and 42, a lot of this numerical advantage was in fighters, but after the failure at Dieppe many RAF fighter squadrons were transferred to other theaters to support the ground combat taking place elsewhere.  

Allied fighter strength did build up again following this, but it was split up between British and American units, split between different air forces within both nationalities (ADGB vs. 2nd TAF for the British, and 8th vs. 9th AF for the Americans).  These splits meant that in the late war years, it was very rare to see all the allied fighters concentrated on any one mission or task.  And with missions ranging from V1 defense of GB, fighter bombing of france, bomber escort to germany, and fighter intrusions and escorts to Norway these forces were fairly spread out when on operations.  

At the same time, the Luftwaffe had taken steps to increase their fighter presense in the west, primarily to counter daylight bombing by the 8th AF.  As a result, the fighter vs. fighter odds in actual battles tended to far greater in 1941/42 then in 1944.  In spite of these decreased odds, the allies had far greater sucess in these battles in 1944, and when the allies did focus all of their fighter forces on one concentrated objective (air superiority and bombing of the normandy area for D-day) again, the Luftwaffe responded by transferring even more fighter units to the west.  The result of this concentrated battle was far different in 1944 then it was in 1942.

To illustrate this, I'm going to show some numbers from two large scale air battles, one that took place in 1942, and one from 1944.  I've chosen these two because I have good records from both sides for these dates, making it possible to make an accurate analysis.

The first that I've chosen is the Dieppe raid of Aug 19th, 1942.  The allies attempted to make a landing at Dieppe in France and the RAF was tasked with providing fighter cover, as well as attacking German targets in the landing area.  The Luftwaffe put the maximum possible effort to oppose this landing with both bombers and fighters of their own, resulting in a large and concentrated air battle that lasted most of the day.

The RAF flew 2600 total sorties, and of this 1800 were Spitfire Mk. Vs and around 150 were the new Spitfire Mk. IXs.  The reported 106 total aircraft lost for the day, of which 88 were spitfires!  Luftwaffe fighters claimed 96 aircraft destroyed, which would indicate that most of the RAF losses were to enemy fighters.

In opposition, the Luftwaffe mounted 377 Fw190 sorties, and an unknown number by bomber units in the area (mostly Do217s).  They reported 48 aircraft lost, 20 of which were fw190s.  

Despite the incredible numerical advantage, the RAF suffered much higher losses - particularly in fighters.  This can be primarily attributed to two factors - first the Luftwaffe pilots of JG2 and JG26 generally had much more combat experience then their allied counterparts, second the Fw190 had a massive speed advantage over all the allied fighters present at the low altitudes where most of the combat was fought that day.


The second combat I've chosen is that of April 8th, 1944.  This was a large scale raid by the 8th Air Force, with a large scale Luftwaffe response.  The target for half the bombers was a number of Luftwaffe installations in NW Germany, the other half of the bombers would hit aircraft factories in the Brunswick area - deeper in northern Germany.

The 8th AF dispatched 644 bombers, evenly split between the two targets.  780 fighter sorties were flown as escorts and fighter sweeps, once again fairly even split between the two bomber streams.  The Luftwaffe concentrated their fighter response entirely on the deeper penetration, and as a result only 4 of the B-17s which were striking the closer targets were lost, while 30 of the B-24s hitting Brunswick were lost.  Also as a result of this, 376 of the US fighters didn't see any LW fighters in the air.  Only the 330 B-24s and 408 escort fighters would be involved in the ensuing air battle.

I don't have an exact total of Luftwaffe sorties for the day, but I know from kill and loss reports that they employed the following JagdGruppen in combat on that day:

I, II, III JG1 - 129 fighters
Stab, I, II, III, IV JG3 - 105 fighters
I JG5 - 29 fighters
Stab, I, III JG11 - 68 fighters
I, II, III JG26 - 129 fighters
II JG27 - 12 fighters
II JG 53 - 23 fighters
III JG54 - 37 fighters
III JG300 - 16 fighters
I, II, III JG302 - 67 fighters
Sturmstaffel I - 17 fighters

The total comes to 632 fighters (all Bf109s and Fw190s).  Luftwaffe serviceability tended to run around 50%, and 8th AF intellegence reported that around 300-350 Luftwaffe fighters were seen.  It seems likely that this was a fairly accurate estimate of the number of LW sorties flown that resulted in contact.  In terms of fighter odds, we are looking at around 1.5:1 in the actual combat area, as opposed to over 4:1 seen in the previous battle.

Ultimately, the Americans lost 22 fighters, but 9 of those were losses to flak or crashes due to pilot error/malfunction from the fighter units that never made contact with the Luftwaffe.

Luftwaffe fighter losses for the day were 78 with 42 pilots killed and 13 wounded.  A devastating total, particularly in pilots where you are seeing nearly 20% of those who were in action that day killed or wounded.

US bombers made claims for 60 kills, and US fighters 88.  The fighters were ulitimately credited with 57 kills after reviewing the claims and gun camera film.

We can see from this, that in early 1944 the typical 8th AF bombing mission was generating far lower odds then those that existed in 1942.  We can also see that the results achieved were FAR better.  In particular, allied fighters were achieving much greater sucess against their german counterparts.  The three main reason for this were: allied bombers were a far more serious threat and so german fighters were more focused towards attacking them, allied pilot quality and tactics had improved during the war while german pilot quality had declined, allied fighters were now as fast or faster then their opponents and possesed better high altitude performance which is where most of their combats were taking place.  

When the allies did again focus all their fighters for D-Day (achieving odds closer to those seen at Dieppe, then over Germany in the first half of 1944) the Luftwaffe was shattered.  Bomber losses to fighters which had been increasing throughout 1944, dropped off an June and never recovered.  The luftwaffe made further attempts to build up a large force and strike at allied bombers as well as at the allied tactical fighters, but were never able to regain control of their airspace which had been lost in 1944.

In light of this, I think it's silly to write off the Luftwaffe's defeat as being a case of simple numbers.  As we can see, the allies had a huge numerical advantage from early on in the war but continued to suffer defeat at the hands of the Luftwaffe.  The big key to sucess for the allied airforces in the west was improvments in pilot training, tactics, and aircraft.  At the same time, the Luftwaffe saw little improvement in their fighters, and a decline in the quality of their pilots.

Offline Simaril

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #168 on: February 19, 2006, 07:59:58 PM »
Thanks...interesting, and backed by numbers rather than generalities.
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Offline Oldman731

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #169 on: February 19, 2006, 08:54:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sable
In light of this, I think it's silly to write off the Luftwaffe's defeat as being a case of simple numbers.  As we can see, the allies had a huge numerical advantage from early on in the war but continued to suffer defeat at the hands of the Luftwaffe.  The big key to sucess for the allied airforces in the west was improvments in pilot training, tactics, and aircraft.  At the same time, the Luftwaffe saw little improvement in their fighters, and a decline in the quality of their pilots.

I agree with all of this.

- oldman

Offline Krusty

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #170 on: February 19, 2006, 09:33:11 PM »
Very few make the "Number only" argument, the one that says the only reason the LW lost was because they were outnumbered.

That's beside the point. The point being that the 109s in AH are totally unstable at almost all speeds when in fact historically they were no such thing.

Let's not lose sight of the main problem: These planes in AH perform horribly. The speed/climb might be on, but you can't even pull the same angle of attack with any of them as you can with the rest of the planeset.

Each plane has its own flight model. WITHIN that flight model each plane will fly differently. Nobody is arguing that all planes should fly the same. This will NOT make them fly the same. It will make them fly within their own flight envelope, but WITHOUT the ahistorical instability that this plane does not deserve and should not have.

Offline Toad

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #171 on: February 19, 2006, 11:06:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The speed/climb might be on, but you can't even pull the same angle of attack with any of them as you can with the rest of the planeset.



Not getting in the argument but I'll just point out that not every aircraft was able to pull the same angle of attack. Ever.
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Offline Krusty

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #172 on: February 20, 2006, 12:14:07 AM »
cc toad, I was thinking more along the lines that this was an indication of how unstable the plane was -- this is a "Flop-o-meter", if you will.

The plane registers a 10.0 on the Flop-o-meter in AH, but historically was never reported to have this same instability.

Offline HoHun

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #173 on: February 20, 2006, 01:06:49 AM »
Hi Sable,

Some points about your post:

1.) You are using the Dieppe raid as a yardstick. If anything, the Dieppe raid tells us that the RAF was not up to par in 1942. One can not expect the Luftwaffe to operate with that level of success on a regular basis.

2.) You are ignoring attrition. Between 1942 and 1944, some 10000 Luftwaffe pilots might have been lost. The Luftwaffe had a hard time replacing these losses, while Britain, the USA and the USSR were able to field much higher numbers of pilots eventually regardless of their losses.

3.) Calculating the force ratio, you are taking into account the splitting of the USAAF forces, you assume that all Luftwaffe fighters were able to make contact. While that's backed up by the USAAF intelligence statement, this is a rather unreliable source. Due to the difficulties of fighter control, it was typical for a certain percentage of Luftwaffe units to fail to make contact - the pilots sarcastically talked about "training sorties" in such cases.

4.) The final total of the 1944 raid seems to about 30 bombers and 13 fighters lost by the USAAF for the loss of 78 aircraft by the Luftwaffe. That's a 9% loss ratio for the bombers, which is quite high and certainly indicates that this was very hard fighting with the Luftwaffe concentrating on the bombers. Outnumbered in terms of fighters and then having a large part of your force ignore the enemy fighters will necessarily yield losses out of proportion of the fighter force ratio.

5.) Unlike the (general) situation in 1942, when the British were merely staging nuisance raids, the Luftwaffe could not ignore the bombers in favour of the most promising targets in 1944 to maximize their effect. The raid in question might indicate bad controlling of the Luftwaffe interceptors by pushing too hard for an attack on the bombers, resulting in heavy losses to the escort fighters, but the bombers were a major factor in the air war and can not be ignored when talking about the force ratio. While you mention this effect, you fail to include it in your conclusions - bombers mean numbers, too.

6.) The Luftwaffe leadership certainly failed to exploit their limited numbers in the optimum way, contributing to the Luftwaffe's final defeat. Galland was quite clear on this. However, his suggestions all come down to juggling numbers more skillfully than the people he criticizes - this does not detract from the fact that the air war was won by numbers.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gatt

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #174 on: February 20, 2006, 02:28:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sable
The idea that numbers alone were responsible for the defeat of the LW in the west is really a myth.........  BIG SNIP. .........
In light of this, I think it's silly to write off the Luftwaffe's defeat as being a case of simple numbers.  As we can see, the allies had a huge numerical advantage from early on in the war but continued to suffer defeat at the hands of the Luftwaffe.  The big key to sucess for the allied airforces in the west was improvments in pilot training, tactics, and aircraft.  At the same time, the Luftwaffe saw little improvement in their fighters, and a decline in the quality of their pilots.


Interesting ... but results of fighter v/s fighter engagements when the LW main target were bombers (from late 1942 till the end of the war, that is) mean nothing. Pure fighter engagements, from late 1942 on, were very rare and usually not accepted by Luftwaffe due to low numbers and opportunity.

You can verify this thing even during massive online historical scenarios:
- allied fighter sweep usually make german fighter assembly difficult and dangerous;
- 190A high cover, made mainly by Bf109G and sometimes by a few 190D, is usually outnumbered;
- 190A's directed against bombers barely float at 25K and making a second pass is almost impossible due to the ridiculous (I dont say difficult I say ridiculous) behaviour of our FW at high altitude; if this is not enuff, our bombers make bombing runs at 300mph+. During this phase FWs, again outnumbered, are like sitting ducks for the close allied escort.

I played many 1943-45 scenarios in Warbirds, both from the axis and allied side. From the allied side, with usual numbers, if you organize a good fighter sweep, high and close escort, winning is a joke. Real LW did pretty big damage to bombers forces during some big raids mainly due to the lack of escort or big planning mistakes. However, RAF and 8th AF had pretty unlimited resources and recovered soon. An average force of 500-1000 bombers with the same number of escorts ... isnt enuff?

No fighter force, with the actual LW numbers, good or not as far as a/c quality and pilot training are concerned, virtual or not, can stand a chance. Saying that numbers were not the main reason of allied air supremacy, togheter with the night&day bombing campaign is pretty silly.

In the Main Arena numbers mean nothing. However, what keep good allied vs axis aircraft k/d ratios is only pilot quality. IMNSHO, obviously.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 03:03:05 AM by gatt »
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Offline Sable

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #175 on: February 20, 2006, 03:15:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

1.) You are using the Dieppe raid as a yardstick. If anything, the Dieppe raid tells us that the RAF was not up to par in 1942. One can not expect the Luftwaffe to operate with that level of success on a regular basis.


I think Dieppe is an interesting data point as it shows just how little numbers  alone swayed things in the allies favor.  Throughout 1941 and 1942 the most common operations that were likely to generate a response from the Luftwaffe fighter forces, was a "Circus" where a small number of bombers would make a raid escorted by a dozen or more fighter squadrons (150+ fighters).  The German opposition to these was typically small scale and involved one sortie only.  In spite of this, they were able to exact a far greater toll of the RAF - typically on the order of 3:1.

Quote

2.) You are ignoring attrition. Between 1942 and 1944, some 10000 Luftwaffe pilots might have been lost. The Luftwaffe had a hard time replacing these losses, while Britain, the USA and the USSR were able to field much higher numbers of pilots eventually regardless of their losses.
[/b]

I mentioned the falling quality of german pilots and agree with you 100% on this point.  The Luftwaffe training structure was hard pressed to deal with the attrition they faced, and eventually couldn't keep up.

Quote

3.) Calculating the force ratio, you are taking into account the splitting of the USAAF forces, you assume that all Luftwaffe fighters were able to make contact. While that's backed up by the USAAF intelligence statement, this is a rather unreliable source. Due to the difficulties of fighter control, it was typical for a certain percentage of Luftwaffe units to fail to make contact - the pilots sarcastically talked about "training sorties" in such cases.
[/b]

I make the assumption of all of these units making contact because they all  claimed kills and/or suffered losses.  Obviously it might be that not all of those fighters in those units saw the enemy, but the same holds true for the 8th AF units that saw action (especially as it was common practice to break up into individual squadrons and cover different parts of the bomber stream).

Quote

4.) The final total of the 1944 raid seems to about 30 bombers and 13 fighters lost by the USAAF for the loss of 78 aircraft by the Luftwaffe. That's a 9% loss ratio for the bombers, which is quite high and certainly indicates that this was very hard fighting with the Luftwaffe concentrating on the bombers. Outnumbered in terms of fighters and then having a large part of your force ignore the enemy fighters will necessarily yield losses out of proportion of the fighter force ratio.

5.) Unlike the (general) situation in 1942, when the British were merely staging nuisance raids, the Luftwaffe could not ignore the bombers in favour of the most promising targets in 1944 to maximize their effect. The raid in question might indicate bad controlling of the Luftwaffe interceptors by pushing too hard for an attack on the bombers, resulting in heavy losses to the escort fighters, but the bombers were a major factor in the air war and can not be ignored when talking about the force ratio. While you mention this effect, you fail to include it in your conclusions - bombers mean numbers, too.
[/b]

The loss totals are fairly high for the allied bombers, and go to show that the LW had neither fallen apart or given up at this point (I mention this, because many histories describe the operations of the 8th up to Big Week and the first Berlin raid and then write the Luftwaffe off as defeated, which I think is neither fair or accurate).

While I do see your point on numbers, I think of this as ultimately more of a tactical and equipment change.  This is a direct result of the allies developing better bombers, as well as better tactics of using them in large numbers in conjunction with their better fighter escorts.  There is obviously a huge difference between the 6 bostons that a 1942 Circus might be escorting, and 300 B-24s.  But at the same time those 300 B-24s have no more capability against a 109 or 190 then the Bostons, unless the fighter attacks them (and while doing so ignores the escorts).  In 1942 the Jagdflieger would attempt to get to the bombers, but if they couldn't they would strike the escort where they had the advantage.  But by 1944 the orders were to attack the bombers at all costs.  At the same time, the American escorts who had been told their primary objective was now shooting down German fighters, not staying close to the bombers.  And the result was a complete reverse of the tactical situation from 1942 - the hunters had become the hunted.

Quote

6.) The Luftwaffe leadership certainly failed to exploit their limited numbers in the optimum way, contributing to the Luftwaffe's final defeat. Galland was quite clear on this. However, his suggestions all come down to juggling numbers more skillfully than the people he criticizes - this does not detract from the fact that the air war was won by numbers.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Ultimately though we can see that the numbers alone didn't solve anything.  The other daylight air offensives in the west (LW bob, and RAF 41-42) both failed despite having numerical superiority.  It was the combination of having the required numbers, along with better trained pilots, better tactics, and better aircraft that made the difference.  From '42 to '44 Luftwaffe pilot quality dropped, tactics were actually worse, and the aircraft had hardly improved at all - at the same time the opposite had occured on the allied side.  This was the difference between the aerial defeat at Dieppe and the victory over Germany.

Offline Charge

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #176 on: February 20, 2006, 03:28:47 AM »
Regarding the performance of 190A8: How many of you people have flown the 190A8 on AvA arena against Tiffies/Temps, Ponys and Spit XXXs? :)


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"The big key to sucess for the allied airforces in the west was improvments in pilot training, tactics, and aircraft."

Could be that those evolved too but I'd say that mostly because of numbers. One big country really can't fight three big countries at the same time. I that situation the aircraft quality and performance had little to do. Consider the situation they had more ME262s, and those earlier than they finally did come into service. I don't think it would had affected the outcome. Probably made it a bit more costly for allies in form of a few more aircrews lost but the effect would have been insignificant in the big scale.

I have read many books of the German pilots and I don't recall any of them expressing their concern of the quality or performance of their rides. It always was the numbers and tactical disadvantage, and in the end the lacking combat experience of their new pilots.  

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Offline gatt

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #177 on: February 20, 2006, 03:34:49 AM »
Oh yeah, judging the whole thing from a Spitfire and/or Pony cockpit makes everthing cristal clear ...
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Offline Sable

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #178 on: February 20, 2006, 03:38:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gatt

No fighter force, with the actual LW numbers, good or not as far as a/c quality and pilot training are concerned, virtual or not, can stand a chance. Saying that numbers were not the main reason of allied air supremacy, togheter with the night&day bombing campaign is pretty silly.


But the Allies had a numerical advantage for YEARS and weren't able to translate that into air superiority until 1944.  Likewise, the Luftwaffe had a numerical advantage over the RAF during the battle of britain, but that wasn't enough to make up for poor strategy, tactics, and aircraft.  If numbers were really all it took to win air battles, then the Luftwaffe should have fallen apart in June 1941 once they faced the combined force of the expanding RAF and the VVS.  

With regard to the 190A, it really was a poor performer at high alt by 1944/45 standards.  In AH it's performance matches that shown in Focke-Wulf test data.  And it's poor high altitude performance is part of my point - no real performance improvements in fighter aircraft were implemented by the LW on a large scale until after the issue had been decided in fall and winter of 44.

Heck, put together 60 Noobs in Bostons and Spit V's and have them try to mount a bombing raid, opposed by 10 of the best pilots in AH (pick the last 10 KOTH winners or something) flying Fw190A5's.  I'd put my money on seeing 10 guys land 6 kill sorties.  Numbers alone don't win battles.

Offline gatt

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Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2006, 03:44:13 AM »
Sable, I see you have exceptional numbers flying both allied and axis rides. So you know what you are talking about. But still, I'm really puzzled by the comparison of stability between allied and axis a/c ...
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown