Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release

[Bruno]

Beginning in Feb '44 with Big Week and pressing up to the D-day landings the LW in the west was worn down while allied air power built up. The LW recovered some what later in terms of total numbers with new aircraft being produced and by rushing pilots through training. However, the quality of LW pilots was on a downward slide getting worse exponentially.

Depending on what you are looking for there's a lot that happened on many dates.

Read up on Addi Glunz, some how he made it through.

[Angus]

All ears for Glunz. Any read to be recommended?
(Same goes with Priller)

I have the basics about Big Week in C.Shore's work "Ten crucial battles of WW2". The book looks good, but is a tad of a dry read. I recommend it though.


BTW, one date is just enough. Been looking at june 24th 1944. Just RAF vs LW is plenty, and the US were yet also very active that day.
The feeling though, is that the LW loss records as compared to aircraft not existing, need a lot of patching up. Much record work I guess.

[Waffle]

just a totaly oddbal thought outta left feild......

 - uneven slat deployment at low speeds makes the 109 a very unstable aircraft as well as the 110. The controls will still function, but if one slat pops out - lift is increased and the other wing stalls - until you correct to get get both slats out - or in most cases the pilots over corrects and pops the unextended slat out while the other one retracts. If you're in a fight and trying to get a shot while this is going on - you're going to have a very hard time. Most likely you'll pull to far for a shot and tumble down, until you correct and regain control.

[JAWS2003]

Originally posted by Waffle BAS
just a totaly oddbal thought outta left feild......

 - uneven slat deployment at low speeds makes the 109 a very unstable aircraft as well as the 110. The controls will still function, but if one slat pops out - lift is increased and the other wing stalls - until you correct to get get both slats out - or in most cases the pilots over corrects and pops the unextended slat out while the other one retracts. If you're in a fight and trying to get a shot while this is going on - you're going to have a very hard time. Most likely you'll pull to far for a shot and tumble down, until you correct and regain control.

Funny, nobody is blaming the slats on La-7

[Wilbus]

Originally posted by Waffle BAS
just a totaly oddbal thought outta left feild......

 - uneven slat deployment at low speeds makes the 109 a very unstable aircraft as well as the 110. The controls will still function, but if one slat pops out - lift is increased and the other wing stalls - until you correct to get get both slats out - or in most cases the pilots over corrects and pops the unextended slat out while the other one retracts. If you're in a fight and trying to get a shot while this is going on - you're going to have a very hard time. Most likely you'll pull to far for a shot and tumble down, until you correct and regain control.

While this could be correct for "near stall speed" where the slats pop in and out it is not correct for the speeds where the plane actually is unstable.

Most have metioned low speed flying, for example after a hammerhead where the plane just keeps on wobbling, usually both slats are out at this time.

[Knegel]

Hi,

the 109 wasnt unstable due to the slats, as long as the mechianics was able to adjust them well.  

While turning this is irrelevant anyway, cause here always the inner wing slat will pop out at 1st, this gave the 109 a advantage over most other planes. The outpopping slat simply hinder the wing to drop. While the 109 pilot had maybe to 'fight' the unstability due to the outpopping slat, the other pilots had to fight the stalling inner wing.
The seperate working slats was the reason why the piltos was bale to get that close to the stall without to fear a spin, they wasnt a reason for a unstable gunplattform in general. Used pilots could get over this edge and turn with both slats open. In this moment there is no reason for a unstable feeling.

btw, the La5/7 had linked slats afaik, they did pop out always together, according to the La5 manual the slowspeed behaviour (below 210km/h IAS) was pretty bad.

Regarding the 109A8 and D9 i only wonder why so heavy planes, with so much power but smal wing can waste so much energy, while planes with much more big wings, much less weight and less power keep energy out of highspeed like mad. Thats like a stone decelerate faster than a feather.

At slowspeed the 190A8 seems to be ok, while the A5 seems to be a bit light, at least its strange to see the 109G6 with same stallspeed(100% fuel 95mph +/-). Strangewise the 109E had a similar stall speed than the Spit1a(according to british tests), i guess the G6 (without gunpods) wasnt more bad than the SpitIXc regarding this.

 

Greetings, Knegel

[Charge]

"- uneven slat deployment at low speeds makes the 109 a very unstable aircraft as well as the 110. The controls will still function, but if one slat pops out - lift is increased and the other wing stalls "

AFAIK the MEs were not unstable in any sense. The uneven slat deployment will yaw the plane slightly in banking which is not very noticeable unless you are trying to keep something in your gunsight while turning. That is my interpretation of all the anecdotal evidence I have seen.

AFAIK the slat does not actually "increase" lift. It uniforms the airflow over the wing so that the profile tolerates more AoA than it normally could without the slat.

-C+

[Waffle]

One thing I've read is that alot of 109 pilots didn't like when the slats popped out - as they then had an audible clue that their crate was about to stall.

For kicks go up a mossie and level it at at about 100 feet and get going fast...

then yank back on the stick.. hard like you were trying to pull up to keep from getting bounced. You'll end up in the ground.


Also on the topic of 190A8s vs bombers - isn't that why they put the d9 into production? Because the 190a8 started to suffer from degraded performance at 20k even worse above 25k ? Most A8 flight needed escorts because they were so laden with extra armor and added weight they were pretty much easy pickings for us fighters.

[JAWS2003]

A8 had no problem dealing with the bombers. was the escorts that messed them up. The drop in performance of the FW-190 A at altitude made them vulnerable to fighter escorts, not helpless against the bombers.
 Over Ploiesti, the old Romanian IAR-80/81(with 1000HP engine) had no problem shooting down bombers at 7500-8000m. Was the escorts they were hopeless against.

[hitech]

Not sure what you are saying wilbus, Speed and slat deployment are not related.

[Bruno]

Also on the topic of 190A8s vs bombers - isn't that why they put the d9 into production? Because the 190a8 started to suffer from degraded performance at 20k even worse above 25k ? Most A8 flight needed escorts because they were so laden with extra armor and added weight they were pretty much easy pickings for us fighters.

First the D-9s FTH wasn't much better then the Antons. Also, the D-9 wasn't a 'bomber killer' it was an air superiority fighter designed to combat allied fighters not bombers.

Second, the Allied bombers didn't typically bomb from above 20k feet. During the AH Ruhr Scenario a lot for research was done and it was found that the average altitude for the bombers making raids against Ruhr industry was around 17.5k feet. Some higher, some much lower. In fact a few raids were in the 9000 foot range.

Thirdly, the reason the Sturmgruppen needed escort is because of their tactics of applying mass on mass, i.e. forming large formations (Gefechtsverband). They needed cover while forming up, while en route to target etc...  Also, the Sturmbocks were ordered to push through to the bombers and ignore the allied fighters as such they were vulnerable. With out cover the allied fighters could just wait until the 190s formed for their attack then attack the 190s in turn. In order to give the 190s cover they were provided with top cover and close escort (109s / D-9s) that were tasked with keeping the 190s clear so they could get to the bombers, it had nothing to do with the 190s not being able to defend themselves or being to heavy to fight. In fact many a Sturmbock pilot had numerous allied fighter kills. The LW focus was on destroying bombers.

[Toad]

The 303rd BG, my father-in-law's outfit. He flew as tailgunner.

This is from the 303rd website. If you choose, you can view all of their missions. This is "February"; as they set it up, you get all missions flown on a February date, in any year they were active.

01 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 310
Target: Railroad bridge at Mannheim, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 35 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb RDX M43 & 2 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes; 26,000, 25,000 & 26,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,050 rounds

02 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 13
Target: Railroad Marshalling Yards, Hamm, Germany
(Mission Aborted)
Crews Dispatched: 12
Length of Mission: 3 hours
Bomb Load: 5 x 1000 lbs, 10 x 500 lbs,
5 x 300 lbs M31 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitude: 20,500 ft
Ammo Fired: none

03 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 103
Target: U-Boat Facilities at Wilhelmshaven, Germany (PFF)
Crews Dispatched: 39
Crews Lost: Capt. G.A. White, 10 KIA
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 20 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 & 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs (6 w/bomb bay tanks)
Bombing Altitudes: 28,000 ft and 28,300 ft
Ammo Fired: 5,450 rounds

03 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 311
Target: Military Objectives at Berlin, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 15 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 24,200, 23,000 & 25,100 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,755 rounds

04 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 14
Target: Industrial Targets NW of Osnabruck, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 13
Crews Lost: Capt. Cole - 3 KIA, 6 POW, 1 WIA/POW/DOW
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 1 WIA
Length of Mission: 5 hours plus
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lbs M43
Bombing Altitude: 19,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 20,991 rounds
Enemy Aircraft Claims: 8 Destroyed, 1 Probable, 2 Damaged

04 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 104
Target: City area, Frankfurt, Germany (PFF Bombing)
Crews Dispatched: 38
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 3 crewmen experienced frostbite
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 15 minutes
Bomb Load: 21 & 42 65 lb M47A1 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: A Group, 25,000 ft; B Group, 24,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 5,620 rounds

05 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 105
Target: Bricy German Airfield, Orleans, France
Crews Dispatched: 20 with 3 spares (unused)
Length of Mission: 5 hours, 25 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 15,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,780 rounds

06 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 106
Target: Dijon/Lonvic Airdrome, Dijon, France
Crews Dispatched: 20 plus 2 spares
Crews Lost: 1 crew, Lt. J.S. Bass, 1 KIA, 9 POW
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: Co-pilot Lt. C.G. Doering KIA
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 10 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 or 12 500 lb M43 type bombs
Bombing Altitude: 15,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 425 rounds

06 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission: No. 312
Target: Friedrichroda, Geisel, and Ostheim, Germany
Visual Targets of Opportunity
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 28 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 25,100, 23,500, & 25,900 ft
Ammo Fired: 580 rounds

08 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 107
Target: City area, Frankfurt, Germany (PFF)
Crew Dispatched: 20 plus 2 spares
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 1 minor wound, 1 frostbite
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 40 minutes
Bomb Load: 21 or 42 x 65 lb M47A1 Indendiary bombs
Bombing Altitude: 26,400 ft

09 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 313
Target: Synthetic Oil Plant at Lutzkendorf, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Crews Lost: Lt. Nemer, 5 KIA, 1 POW, 3 RTD;
Lt. Barrat, 8 KIA, 1 POW; Lt. Bailey, 7 POW, 2 RTD
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 1 WIA
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 14 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 25,200, 23,200, & 25,600 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,205 rounds

11 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 108
Target: City area, Frankfurt, Germany (PFF)
Crews Dispatched: 21
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 1 KIA, 7 injured
Length of Mission: 8 hours
Bomb Load: 6 or 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 25,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,370 rounds

14 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 15
Target: Industrial Targets, Hamm, Germany
(Aborted)
Crews Dispatched: 19
Length of Mission: 3 1/2 to 4 1/4 hours
Bomb Load: 5 x 1000 lbs M44 H.E. & 10 x 500 H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitude: 22,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 8,748 rounds
Enemy Aircraft Claims: 1 Destroyed, 1 Damaged

14 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 314
Target: Military Objectives at Dresden, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 9 hours, 5 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 x 500 lb H.E. M43 & 4 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: 27,900, 26,600, & 28,300 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,750 rounds

15 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 315
Target: Military Objectives at Dresden, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 22 minutes
Bomb Load: 18 x 250 lb H.E. M57 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 24,700, 24,100, & 25,600 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,050 rounds

16 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 16
Target: Port Area, St. Nazaire, France
Crews Dispatched: 14
Crews Lost: Two - Lt. Dunnica & Capt. Breed
Length of Mission: 5 1/4 to 5 1/2 hours
Bomb Load: 500 & 1000 lbs Demolition bombs
Bombing Altitude: 25,000 to 26,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 30,119 rounds
Enemy Aircraft Claims: 4 Destroyed, 1 Probable, 1 Damaged

16 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 316
Target: Synthetic Oil Plant at Langendreer, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Crews Lost: Lt. Wertz, 3 KIA, 6 POW
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 1 WIA
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 20 minutes
Bomb Load: 18 x 250 lb H.E. M57 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 28,400, 28,300
Ammo Fired: 1,761 rounds

19 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 317
Target: Coking Plant at Gelsenkirchen, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 38
Crewmen Wounded or Lost: 1 KIA
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 15 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb RDX M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,700, 25,400, & 26,700 ft
Ammo Fired: 850 rounds

20 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 109
Target: A Group - Junker Aircraft Works, Leipzig, Germany
B Group - Industrial Plants, Hettstedt, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 38
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 2 minor wounds, 1 crash landing
Length of Mission: 9 hours, 10 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. & 42 x M-47 Incendiary bombs,
plus 3000 lbs of nickels
Bombing Altitude: A Group - 19,000 ft; B Group - 16,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 9,740 rounds

20 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 318
Target: Marshalling Yard at Nurnberg, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 35 minutes
Bomb Load: 16 x 500 lb H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,000, 25,100, & 26,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 700 rounds

21 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 110
Target: German Airdrome, Diepholz, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 36
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 10 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs plus 1 A/C w/ 3000 lbs nickles
Bombing Altitude: 21,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 5,510 rounds

21 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 319
Target: Marshalling Yard at Nurnberg, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 38
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 30 minutes
Bomb Load: 5 x 500 lb H.E. M43 & 5 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: 23,800, 23,900 & 25,250 ft
Ammo Fired: 480 rounds

22 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 111
Target: Junkers Aircraft Factory, Aschersleben, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 36
Crews Lost: Lt. J.W. Stuermer, Lt. J.R. Morrin,
Lt. G.E. Underwood, Lt. C.D. Crook and Lt. J. Moffatt
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 50 total; 37 crew members
plus 1 passenger missing, 3 bodies recovered from sea from missing A/C
and 9 crewmen killed in mid-air collision
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 30 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 20,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 37,455 rounds

22 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 320
Target: Marshalling Yards at Uelzen (Ulzen), Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 45 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb RDX bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 12,650, 11,340, & 12,900 ft
Ammo Fired: 595 rounds

23 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 321
Target: Marshalling Yards at Kitzingen, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 9 hours, 36 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb RDX M64 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 11,500, 11,200 & 12,450 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,520 rounds

24 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 112
Target: Kugelfischer Ball Bearing Works, Schweinfurt, Ger.
Crews Dispatched: High Group - 20; Composite Group - 7
Crews Lost: Lt. Henderson and Lt. Smith
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 20 crewmen missing,
1 crew suffered frostbite
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 40 minutes
Bomb Load: 42 x 65 lb M47A1 Incendiary bombs; 12 x 500 lb G.P.
Bombing Altitude: 23,000 ft; 20,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 2,150 rounds

24 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 322
Target: Oil Target at Hamburg, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 12 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb RDX M64 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,600, 26,000 & 27,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 275 rounds

[Toad]

25 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 113
Target: Group A - Messerschmitt A/C Factory, Augsburg, Ger.
Group B - V.K.F. Ball Bearing Works, Stuttgart, Ger.
Crews Dispatched: Group A - 19; Group B - 12
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 6 crewmen wounded by flak
Length of Mission: 9 hours, 15 minutes
Bomb Load: Group A - 12 x 500 lb bombs,
Group B - 3 or 6 x 1000 lb bombs
Bombing Altitude: Group A - 22,100 ft; Group B - 21,100 ft
Ammo Fired: 3,780 rounds

25 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 323
Target: Tank Factory at Friedrichshafen, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 38
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 50 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 x 500 lb H.E. M43 & 6 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: 23,850 ft
Ammo Fired: 870 rounds

26 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 17
Target: U-Boat Yards - Wilhelmshaven, Germany (Secondary)
Crews Dispatched: 19
Length of Mission: 5 hours, 20 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lbs H.E. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitude: 24,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 20,500 rounds


26 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 324
Target: Marshalling Yard at Berlin, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 40 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 x 500 lb H.E. M43 & 4 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: 25,000, 24,500 & 26,500 ft
Ammo Fired: 650 rounds

27 February 1943
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 18
Target: U-Boat Pens, Brest, France
Crews Dispatched: 16
Length of Mission: 5 hours 22 minutes
Bomb Load: 5 x 1000 lb H.E. M44 bombs
Bombing Altitude: 21,600 ft
Ammo Fired: 9,440 rounds


27 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 325
Target: Marshalling Yard at Leipzig, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 45 minutes
Bomb Load: 6 x 500 lb H.E. M43 & 4 x 500 lb M17 Incendiaries
Bombing Altitudes: 26,500, 26,300 & 26,800 ft
Ammo Fired: 640 rounds

28 February 1944
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 114
Target: Bois/Coqueral--"Crossbow" Targets (V-2 Rocket Sites)
Crews Dispatched: 23
Crews Lost: 1Lt. Shoup crew - 7 KIA, 2 EVD, 1 POW
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 3 crewmen wounded
Length of Mission: 4 hours, 45 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. bombs
Bombing Altitude: 14,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,160 rounds

28 February 1945
303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 326
Target: Marshalling Yard at Hagen, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 20 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb M43 & 2 x 500 lb M17 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 25,000, 24,000 & 26,000 ft
Ammo Fired: 1,000 rounds




ALL 303rd missions are listed  HERE . You can cross-reference to the summaries by date if you are so inclined.

[Wilbus]

Sorry. What I ment was high, or on the "edge" of high, angle of attack.Where the slats pop in and out. However this is not where the 109 "feels" unstable in AH. All the slats do to the 109 is to make the plane jump somewhat mkaing the aim a bit harder in those moments. They don't make the plane jump as much as I thought they would though, judging from pilot reports. This could be a "experten vs newbie" thing though in Real life. Marseille never had any trouble with it as far as is mentioned anywhere.

Back to topic. The plane feels unstable (well more so then other planes) at stall speed, trying to follow a P47 up in a loop till they both hang on the props the P47 is far easier to controll. This goes with most other planes aswell.

[Mister Fork]

Originally posted by hitech
Not sure what you are saying wilbus, Speed and slat deployment are not related.

Question Hitech - I assume you control the Centre of Gravity and the weight of the aircraft?  I am wondering if the COG was off in any aircraft, by a few feet, what kind of impact would that have on stall characterists.

Another questio HT: what improvements were made in the aerodynamic/physics environment model from AHI to AHII?