Author Topic: Crump banned?? WHY  (Read 7941 times)

Offline JAWS2003

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2006, 04:52:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Crump does have a large source of data to draw from.  No denying it.

However when someone continually makes personal or derogatory remarks towards members of a community, it becomes in the best interest of the community to part company with that person.


In all the Treads I see Crump post i find him posting data and nice information. After 5-6 replays I see the same 2-3 people jumping in just to mess his tread. Honestly, this is what I see in all the treads that went bad. I see the same few people chasing and harassing him.
  How come duels ala Milo/Kurfust are simply tolerated or "moderated", and you have Crump banned. I think it gets to one's nerves having the same guys harassing you and messing all the civilized discussions you take part in.
 Honestly that's what I see when I read the forum.

Offline LePaul

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2006, 04:57:28 PM »
Pretty well said.

Over my forums, I insisted folks simply obey the rules.  You'd a thought Id stole the secret to Coca Cola!  

Pity he has to be banned.  Perhaps he'll smarten up and appeal to come back.

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2006, 05:06:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JAWS2003
In all the Treads I see Crump post i find him posting data and nice information. After 5-6 replays I see the same 2-3 people jumping in just to mess his tread. Honestly, this is what I see in all the treads that went bad. I see the same few people chasing and harassing him.
  How come duels ala Milo/Kurfust are simply tolerated or "moderated", and you have Crump banned. I think it gets to one's nerves having the same guys harassing you and messing all the civilized discussions you take part in.
 Honestly that's what I see when I read the forum.



Well kurffy was banned also .
Yup a real tremor in the force.





Bronk
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Offline Skuzzy

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2006, 05:06:27 PM »
Uh, Kurfurst got banned Jaws, for the same reason.

If you are in someone's home punching holes in thier walls, and are asked politely to stop and you do not, guess what might happen?

Like HT said, do not confuse us missing behavioral issues with accepting those issues.  Putting that aside, it still grants no excuse for poor behavior.
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storch

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2006, 05:14:55 PM »
I'm sure crumpp won't return and he will allow his subscription to AHII to lapse.  he is already involved in another WWII mmog as an aircraft model developement consultant and as a player.

Offline JAWS2003

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2006, 05:18:12 PM »
I don't blame him. He was harassed too much here.

storch

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Crump banned?? WHY
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2006, 05:36:06 PM »
I don't blame him either.  given the amount of time and money he has spent researching the FW190 and now other types of WWII aircraft and how he has freely shared this information with HTC and the members here it comes as surprise to me that he would be banned.  it's actually a good catalyst for him to move on to other places where he is respected and appreciated.  he's genuinely a good a guy and very helpful.  he is also currently serving in our armed forces and is often at the very tip of the spear in our nation's fight against global terrorism.  I'm glad and very proud to count him among my friends.  he's the real deal.

Offline JAWS2003

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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2006, 05:37:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Uh, Kurfurst got banned Jaws, for the same reason.

If you are in someone's home punching holes in thier walls, and are asked politely to stop and you do not, guess what might happen?

Like HT said, do not confuse us missing behavioral issues with accepting those issues.  Putting that aside, it still grants no excuse for poor behavior.


I do understand this very well.
 I think he did it out of frustration. He had the best information for  FW-190. This aircraft is rather poorly modeled in the game. This is no secret. His material could have helped fix the plane once and for all.
 His valuble material was ignored, and all the discussions he got in got trashed by few guys.
 I understand you, but I understand him too.

Offline Furious

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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 05:40:22 PM »
crumpp = voss   or close enough imo not to matter.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2006, 06:55:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JAWS2003
I do understand this very well.
 I think he did it out of frustration. He had the best information for  FW-190. This aircraft is rather poorly modeled in the game. This is no secret. His material could have helped fix the plane once and for all.
 His valuble material was ignored, and all the discussions he got in got trashed by few guys.
 I understand you, but I understand him too.


Once again we are accuse us of stuff that is in no way factual. None of his material was ignored. Could it also be that crump only tended to post the data that showed the FW's in the very best light? And hence makes you belive the following?

Quote
FW-190. This aircraft is rather poorly modeled in the game. This is no secret.


Quite frankly I found any discussion with crump almost imposible and extreamly frustating.  So I pretty much quit trying to discuss any thing with him. But I read almost all his post, mostly when he posted some data sheets that we hadn't seen before. But very rairly did I ever agree with his conclusions.

On a lot of his post I saw lots of debating his conclusions. I belive this is what diccusion fourms are for. Stating that you do not agree with some one and posting your resonse why is how a lot of us gain better insight into the topic at hand, But with crump the debates would rapidly degenerate. And the debate would change to a completly new topic.

Good debates expand knowledge of all involved. Bad debates are people just trying to prove they are correct.

So I agree with you a lot of stuff was from crumps frustraion. But is that frustration realy justified? Should I completly change our buisness just to alivate crumps frustration?

Quote
His material could have helped fix the plane once and for all.


It would have changed the FW, the debate about "Fixed" would still continue.

HiTech

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2006, 07:13:27 PM »
Yeah, just because crumpp had data doesn't mean it was the correct data. HTC has data also and has many years of research put into it. The only reason crumpps info was "right" was because you supported what his said but it doesn't nessicarily make it true. Heck, I could research a plane, find all the best data and any negative I find, just ignore. Then post only what I want too in order to make HTCs modeling look bad. All those who love that plane would jump on the band wagon and whine. I noticed with crumpp whenever you brought up another source he would always try discredit it especially allies testing german hardware. It always seemed his data was correct and no one else could possibly be right. It's almost impossible to hold a constructive discussion with someone like that. One final note I'll make is this. I do admit that there are some things that need to be fixed such as the flap speed of the 109, but why is it so hard to believe that a 109 flew how it does in RL? Rarely, if ever do we fight in the MA how they fought in RL. In RL you had cordination so a planes weakness could be well over come by good teamwork. Maybe the simple fact is the lone wolf 109/190s just aren't as good as allied fighters became over the war. I know you'll cite specific times where this 109 pilot blew up 50 gillion allies by himself but who knows what the real curcumstances are. None of us were there so we can only guess and if you like german iron, you're gonna be naturally biased to believe it was because the 109/190 was a superior plane and not say pilot experience or just plain luck.
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storch

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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2006, 07:32:56 PM »
actually some of crumpp's data would actually hurt the current models.  the FW190A5 is in some aspects modelled incorrctly to it's favor according to data he discovered and provided.  he stated as much in numerous posts.  like or dislike the man he presents what he finds.  from conversation with him one easily comes away with the impression that his interest was in improving the game and not self interest nor justification.  I can see how it would become frustrating to the guy on the other side though.  frankly if I were in HT's position I'd fire someone who constantly bickered with me or as in this case (well, almost anyways as banning seems pretty rude) I would politely ask them to patronize my most disliked competitor.  I do it all the time.  since the developers have decided to allow things to remain with the status quo then the only choice for the person unwilling to accept that decision is to not patronize this game and move on.

Offline JAWS2003

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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2006, 08:02:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Could it also be that crump only tended to post the data that showed the FW's in the very best light? And hence makes you belive the following?

HiTech


Could be, but if you look at his opinion about the FW-190A5 weight in game and his posts in this tread:

Did 190A-5/A-6 ever use max boost 1.68 ata in combat

 I see he is quite honest. :(

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2006, 08:20:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JAWS2003
Could be, but if you look at his opinion about the FW-190A5 weight in game and his posts in this tread:

Did 190A-5/A-6 ever use max boost 1.68 ata in combat

 I see he is quite honest. :(


Key word is opinion. The simple fact is HTC has data of their own that I'm sure they researched and have decided to go with. Once again, who's to say his data is more accurate than HTCs? All this is is one group with their data against another. If you're a fan of one side then you will side with that sides data. I'm not saying crummp didn't do his research and was VERY informative, but just because he presented data that doesn't make it the end all be all.
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Offline Sable

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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2006, 10:09:45 PM »
The only sets of climb/speed charts I've ever been able to find, on this board or otherwise are the english translation of the Focke Wulf curves for the 190A8, the  Focke Wulf curves for the 190A5, and the allied test data of the captured EB106.  Our A8 is REAL close the Focke Wulf data, and our A5 is REAL close to the EB106 data from the testing I've done.  Crump mentioned a Rechlin dataset for the A8 a few times, but I've never been able to find it, and he wouldn't post it (although he did say he sent it to HT, so I'm sure they've seen it).  If the A5 were made to match the FW data, it would be a bit faster on the deck, but climb worse all around.

In terms of these kind of objectively tested and well documented performance areas, the AH 190s seem to be very well modeled.  HTC doesn't achieve this by just entering what it's top speed, or max climb rate should be - they do it by making sure that the thrust, lift, weight, and drag are correct, and then letting the game do the math determining what the plane will do.  So why would one plane that hits its known testable figures be wrong when the others are right?  And how do you know it's wrong?  Based off of some subjective feeling and a few vague descriptions of it's use written 60 years ago?  We had people in the MA claiming that the Spit XVI was faster then the La-7 when it first came out, based on their feeling and observation.  

In short, even when my "hunch" disagrees with HTC's modeling I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, since they've input the historical data and done the math to get their result.  I might have read some of what they have, and have a very limited comprehension of the math involved - hardly grounds to argue the point.  And to top it off, HT is one of the few guys (maybe the only one) on these boards that has actually flown one of these fighters we argue about so much.