Crump banned?? WHY

[Bronk]

not to hijack but i always had a nagging question.

The US captured a KI 84 and was tested with us fuel and was markedly faster than with japanese fuel. Hence better fuel better performance.
Now Crump had stated that FW that was captured and tested ran worst  with allied fuel than the fuel that LW. Now I cant understand this.

I am no aircraft mech but i have many years as a hobbyist auto mech. If i was told that the test fuel was of higher octane i would have made changes in timing carb setting and plugs and a few other settings.
My point being I think that the USAAF would have a more knowledgeable tech than me.  So why was engine performance worst , because the KI 84 performed much better.

Something is not quite rite.
if anybody has an answer please post.



Bronk

[Grits]

Originally posted by Sable
So why would one plane that hits its known testable figures be wrong when the others are right?  And how do you know it's wrong?  Based off of some subjective feeling and a few vague descriptions of it's use written 60 years ago?  We had people in the MA claiming that the Spit XVI was faster then the La-7 when it first came out, based on their feeling and observation.

Every time we have a patch people start claiming all kinds of outrageous changes based on "feelings". I dont believe in "feeling" changes, but then again, I dont watch Oprah either.

Originally posted by Bronk
So why was engine performance worst , because the KI 84 performed much better.

Something is not quite rite.
if anybody has an answer please post.

I have never bought that story either. I've tuned a lot of different types of engines and they are all basically the same. Sure, there are some nuances but a good engine tuner can make anything work.

[Glasses]

Germans used a different fuel than Americans, IE the Kommandogeraet was configured to the synthetic fuel of the Germans the US Had natural fuel that was too rich, thus the Kommandogerat couldn't handle the mixture well and fouled up the plugs.

The Japanese I believe used natural fuels too so when the Americans used 110 octane on it it performed way better and cooler than with the Japanese fuel.

From what I've understood from Crumpp's posts.

[storch]

Originally posted by Glasses
Germans used a different fuel than Americans, IE the Kommandogeraet was configured to the synthetic fuel of the Germans the US Had natural fuel that was too rich, thus the Kommandogerat couldn't handle the mixture well and fouled up the plugs.

The Japanese I believe used natural fuels too so when the Americans used 110 octane on it it performed way better and cooler than with the Japanese fuel.

From what I've understood from Crumpp's posts.

that pretty much nails it.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Glasses
Germans used a different fuel than Americans, IE the Kommandogeraet was configured to the synthetic fuel of the Germans the US Had natural fuel that was too rich, thus the Kommandogerat couldn't handle the mixture well and fouled up the plugs.

The Japanese I believe used natural fuels too so when the Americans used 110 octane on it it performed way better and cooler than with the Japanese fuel.

From what I've understood from Crumpp's posts.

OK first what is kommmandogeraet.

Second Japanese by the end of war like the Germans were using synthetic fuels. Think Japanese fuel made from pine oil or something like that.

Not trying to be difficult but I Just don't think USAAF techs were that inept to modify a system to make it run on fuels available.



Bronk

[storch]

I don't think it's ineptitude as much as unfamiliarity.  a good tech can make almost any device work at 90% given the time but the guy who has training and experience will always do much better especially on a complex device such as the kommandograet.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Bronk
OK first what is kommmandogeraet.

An alternate spelling of the german Kommandogerat  

[gripen]

No one needs to answer following question:

What are you willing to believe?

Regarding the fuel and the BMW 801, see this. In the USAF tests the EB-104 used grade 140 fuel (just like USAF Ki-84 tests).

gripen

[Glasses]

Essentially the Kommandogeraet configured the Mixture ,Manifold,   RPM,  and superchargers for the optimum performance at  altitude and different power  configs.

Essentially relieving the pilot of the tedious duty of managing each individually.

[straffo]

Dammit , I didn't answered the question.

The Kommandogerat  is an electro-mecanical computer used to set mixture ,rpm etc on the FW  engine

[Bronk]

Thanks to all that posted.

Gripen is there any flight test data after the test stand fix was implemented.
If there is can you point me in the direction of it . This fuel thing has piqued my interest a bit.



Bronk

[gatt]

Originally posted by hitech
Gatt: Do not confuse the ablilty and time to handle every instance (we do not ever have enof) with the desire to keep the fourm civil.

Also eveyone here is in MY house. Make absoulutly no mistake about that.

There is a difference between two guest getting into an agument in my house vs a guest impuning my integrity to everone else in my house.

I have to live here. But I do get to choose who is a guest or not.


HiTech

I respect house owner even if I pay to be a guest. But please, make moderators stop those silly harassers and hijiackers as well. No one is so thick skinned to resist for long time to them. Its a pity to loose ppl with such good stuff about airplanes. And, no moderator using (or suspected of using) double standards  will ever be respected by the community.

[hogenbor]

I pretty much believe the PERFORMANCE data is correct.

However, Eric Brown explicitly states on more than one occasion that a  Spit IX is a perfect match for a contemporary Fw-190A. Try that in AH.

The man was a combat as well as a test pilot and holds world records for number of aircraft flown and number of deck landings. To me that means something.

I'm not a pilot and certainly no researcher. But I do feel strongly that the Fw-190 should't stall at the slighest provocation of 'G'. But it's just a 'feeling' and as long we don't have a real Fw-190 to fly against a real Spit, we will never know we can only speculate. And boy, we do!

I am really sorry Crumpp got out of line and I think that he became more than a little fanatical about his 190. But he WAS harrassed and the harrassers should be punished too.

If two people fight in MY house, I kick them both out.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Bronk

Gripen is there any flight test data after the test stand fix was implemented.

RAE flew following amount of flight hours with planes using the BMW 801 (according to "War Prizes" by Phil Butler):

MP499 (Fw 190 A-3) 12:15
PE882 (Fw 190 A-4/U8) 52:20
PJ876 (Ju 88 R-1) 66:55
PM679 (Fw 190 A-4/U8) 8:35
PN999 (Fw 190 A-5/U8) 14:00
TP190 (Ju 88 G-1) 32:35

The engine used for that bench test was taken from MP499 and all flying with other planes using the BMW 801 was done after the bench tests. The PE882 was the main 190 used by RAE for testing and performance as well as drag test data can be found from PRO among the Fw 190 documents.

Note that the fix was nothing more than changing the plugs and rough adjusting of the fuel pump to compensate different gravity of the fuels.

gripen

[Charge]

"If two people fight in MY house, I kick them both out."
Even if the other likes the same cars as you do, and occasionally remebers to point out how splendid you are?

Gripen, which of those FWs was it that couldn't get above some altitude without the engine fully cutting out?

-C+