Author Topic: A question for Christians  (Read 3352 times)

Offline leonid

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A question for Christians
« on: July 29, 2001, 10:37:00 PM »
How do you reconcile the Old Testament's "Eye for an eye, Tooth for a tooth" with the New Testament's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"  The Old Testament is pretty cut and dry.  You do something wrong, you pay for it in equal terms.  In the New Testament the message is more of leniency, consideration, and compassion.

This isn't a troll, I'm just really curious.  When I used to be a Roman Catholic the logic was that the Old Testament was, well, old.  Thus, the New Testament took precedence if ever there was discrepency.
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Offline hblair

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A question for Christians
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2001, 12:25:00 AM »
The book of Hebrews (look below) contains much of what you are asking about. The old testament (or covenant) was put into effect on Mt. Sinai with communication between God and Moses at about 1400 BC I think. The New Testament went into effect after the crucifixion of Christ about 33 AD, therefore overiding the old law (or testament).

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

There's a lot more to the story, but thats the basics. There's more verses in the bible dealing with it, but that's all that I can think of with (my tired) mind right now.
 :)

BTW the book of Hebrews is actually a letter written (belived by some to be written by the Apostle Paul) to encourage new jewish converts at the time (believed to be shortly before AD64).

Hope this helps, I'm not a Bible scholar by no means.

Offline Boroda

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A question for Christians
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2001, 10:31:00 AM »
I am an atheist, but the question Leonid asked wondered me too.

In the room net to our server compartment in Biochemical Physics institute there lives (yes, he actually lives at work) one scientist, who also teaches Bible in the Orthodox Sunday school.

I often talked with him, he's a very nice person. When I asked that question to him, he said that "Eye for an eye, Tooth for a tooth" was simply a "punishment codex" of the ancient Jews. A practical advice how to punish criminals.

Offline Udie

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A question for Christians
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2001, 10:43:00 AM »
I think Hblair about summed it up. That's the main-only reason I'm against the death penalty.  Sad part is that I never hear Christians talking about this, or when I bring it up in a death penalty debate, they say I'm crazy.

 I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the Christians out there think they have it right when in actuality they've got it wrong, that I blame on the church.  It's kind of hard to get somebody to believe you love him when your poking out his eyes and pulling out his teath....


Udie

Offline Jammer

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A question for Christians
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
I would say this is a matter of interpretation; you read what you want to read. You interpret to confirm your beliefs.

Those who cite the "eye for an eye" passage often to so to justify revenge and/or capital punishment.

Thus it's sad to realize that technical and scientific development has gone from the abacus to super computers in the time moral, social and ethical level of the society has been standing still or even treaded backwards....

Offline mrfish

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A question for Christians
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
as i understand it - many actions of the new testament were meant to update jewish law. christianity is just a kind of reformation of judaism and the supposed fulfillment of jewish prophecy, i never understood why we treat it like its own religion.

 it was supposed to update all kinds of stuff- not just the eye for an eye thing but dietery/purity laws, sabbath laws and a bunch of other stuff. unfortunately even in the new tesatment the message isn't entirely clear. compare the gospels sometime- amongst the other inconsistencies you find - one is a vengeful jesus who says

"Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matt 10:28

as opposed to the nice jesus who says turn the other cheek. some say one gospel was meant to appeal to convert minded jews who wanted to see the romans punished for desecrating the temple around 60ad (??)and others were written to appeal to greeks or romans. most of the new testament is now believed to have been written by the early jesus movement rather than actual guys who hung out with him - over a period of about 100 years..blah blah blah....its a long complicated answer and beyond the scope of this forum.  :)

 
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Offline NATEDOG

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A question for Christians
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2001, 12:05:00 PM »
leonid, the entire quote is, "An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, vengence is mine, sayith the Lord." meaning, what you do in life, you will have to answer for when you stand before him, which is pretty much what the new testement says.

Offline the_hegemon

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A question for Christians
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
mrfish, i think you mean 10:34, not 28.  In reading the entire chapter, I don't get the impression of vengence, but one of conflict between light and darkness, if you will.  If vengence was really the aim there, i think it would have said "but the sword".

But then again, IANABS (i am not a Bible scholar) by any means either.

darkstar

Offline Sunchaser

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A question for Christians
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
The New Testament is  a PC version of the Old.

We, mankind, will come up with a revised version when we think the New Testament rules are too tough on us.

Ever wonder just how many humans have died for their God?

I wonder whos Diety is the real BOSS?

Offline Greese

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A question for Christians
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2001, 06:05:00 PM »
Ok.  I will try to answer this question as best as I can.

The Old Testament was Jewish law.  Inside, are many prophesies referring to what we call the Messiah.  I can't speak for Jews, because I haven't studied up on thier take on this, but christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah that the prophesies referred to.  Read the book of Isaiah, which was written a thousand years or so before Christ (a copy was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls) and then read about Jesus in the New Testament.  First off, we have to argue that Jesus WAS the Messiah. We also need to understand Man's relationship with God in the Old Testament was all about "eye for an eye...".  Someone had to pay for that sin, whatever it was or whoever it was against.  
Now in the New Testament, God erases the "eye for an eye..." by sending his own, blameless son to pay the price for those sins against Him (God the father).  One has to accept the gift that Jesus paid the price for their sins.  There is a big arguement that "If I'm good enough, that's enough, right?" when in truth, no one is good enough on their own.  We have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.  The relationship that God has with Man through his son, Jesus, is one of love and forgiveness, whereas in the Old Testament, it was "eye for an eye...".   I hope this answers your question.  The bottom line, is that the testaments are different because of the nature of the relationship of man and God.  The old "eye for an eye" doesn't apply anymore because of grace, being the gift of Jesus.

Offline mrfish

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A question for Christians
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by the_hegemon:
In reading the entire chapter, I don't get the impression of vengence, but one of conflict between light and darkness, if you will.  

you mean the darkness(evil) that god created when he created everything? why did he send his son to battle his own creation?

Offline leonid

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A question for Christians
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2001, 07:35:00 PM »
Thnx, hblair.  I was actually in the seminary when I was a high schooler.  Yeah, thought I was gonna be a priest  ;)  I guess my question had more to do about which one took precedence from a religious point of view, but you have answered that as well  :)

Natedog,
Thanks for elaborating.  Unfortunately, I think the full phrase only widens the ambiguity.  Does this mean vengeance is the exclusive right of the Lord, or is it deemed permissible on Earth by his subjects when it can be determined such is His wish?  And, yes, the New Testament does warn those who choose not to follow his way, but in the New Testament 'His way' is radically different from the Old Testament.  Jesus almost never condones violence of any kind, though he does allude to understanding the uncontrolability of rage due to an extreme situation (the market in the Temple passage).
ingame: Raz

Offline Vulcan

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A question for Christians
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2001, 08:48:00 PM »
<------- got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many "complex" questions ;-) (7 or 8 years old at the time).

One of my all time favourites (JW = Jehovahs Witnesses):
JW: "So V who do you think created the earth and the creates and the universe"
V: "Personally I tend towards the Big Bang camp and evolution did the rest"
JW: "But even if we take that view someone must have created the Big Bang"
V: "Not necessarily, theres the theory of the expanding bubble universe that eventually collapses and creates another big bang"
JW: "But even considering that, someone had to create the universe"
V: "No, its a hard concept for man to grasp, but its always been there"
JW: "But thats impossible, someone had to create it - it just can't have existed forever"
V: "Who do you think created it then"
JW: "God of course"
V: "So who created God then?"
JW: "Nobody, God has existed forever"
V: "ahhh"
(conversations ends politely as they realised where we came too)

Offline StSanta

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A question for Christians
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2001, 09:11:00 PM »
Vulcan, you'd be surprised of how often i've used the 'exact same argument* - using the JW's own premise to prove their conclusion false.

It's just so BEAUTIFUL.

 :)

JW's don't seem all that bad though.

Offline Kieran

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A question for Christians
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2001, 10:23:00 PM »
Jesus said he did not come to change a single word of God's message; in fact, He came to fulfill it. It can therefore be inferred that what is stated in the Old Testament stands, except where specifically cited (animal sacrifice, as an example).

 
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"Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18  

To understand the relationship of man to God, think back to the beginning. Man is in the Garden of Eden- paradise. Man, because he has free will, disobeys God's rule (Law) and is forced to leave.

In time the population of the earth is such that rules for conduct are necessary (as evidenced by the wickedness of man and the destruction of man through flood). Along comes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and through them the world begins to be re-introduced to God.

In the proper time Moses is chosen to lead an oppressed nation out of slavery to live by God's will. At this point God has set His people apart from the rest of the world and gives them the Law. The Law is pretty common sense material for the most part, but it does add the novel idea that God is a jealous god and that He demands no other god be worshipped. And so the Jewish people moved on.

In time Jesus comes. He shows that the teachers of the Law have ultimately failed, because they have put the literal translation of the Law before the spirit of the Law. Worse, the teachers had added their own interpretations that obviously were not in line with God's wishes. Jesus would expose this point time and again.

So, to this point man had failed to live in paradise by following his own way. He failed to live in the world by trying to follow the law. It seemed there was no way to get to heaven because no matter what man did he would always fall short of perfection- and God would not allow imperfection near Him.

Then Jesus came. He became the ultimate blood sacrifice for all sins, and as a result became the sole arbiter through which you can be sanctified and allowed to pass into heaven. The Old and New Testament are both relevant, every word, because they trace the steps through which God shows us we need Him. We cannot make it on our own, as the Bible shows.

Now, how does all this relate to the topic? Simple. "Eye for an Eye" as Boroda put it was a simple and direct way to deal with problems in their society. Don't dream for a second it didn't mean exactly what it sounds like it means. As discussed above, Jesus didn't change the word of God. There are still punishments for evil.

David was a man after God's heart. When King Saul was killed, there came a messenger to David bearing Saul's crown and arm band:

 
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David asked him, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy the Lord's annointed?

Then David called one of his men and said, "Go, strike him down!" So he struck him down, and he died. For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the Lord's annointed.'"  2 Samuel 1:14-16  

Remember, Jesus is also God and the Holy Spirit. God is perfection, therefore God does not contradict himself. What fails is our understanding of Him and his Law. Yes, Jesus wants us to love one another. Yes, he wants us to forgive others. Do not let this make you think that wrong goes unpunished, or that it should. Accountability is in the New Testament too, but it is spoken of more in the Hereafter context.

And take that into consideration. Some people who believe in Heaven and Hell somehow believe that earthly punishment can anywhere near compare to the eternal damnation of Hell. If God can damn you to Hell, He can certainly allow you an earthly execution. Further, there is nothing to say that the people here on earth can't be used as God's hand to carry out His wrath- again, this is clearly true, and pointedly illustrated many times throughout the Bible.

I think we have things out of context. I fear eternal damnation far more than any earthly torture or execution. This doesn't mean we have to be bloodthirsty or anything, but we do have to have accountability for our acts. We have to have rules that make our society function smoothly.

 
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"Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me a coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

"Caesar's," they replied.

They he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."  Matthew 22:17-21