A question for Christians

[Sunchaser]

Wow, this well got deep quick.

OK, here is my take on the
whole thing.

We know it is all Eves fault
and ain't we all lucky they
waited awhile to outlaw incest?

I think if God exists he, she or
it has a very distorted sense of humor.

Man invented the Gods, religion is
just another power structure.

And won't I be amazed if I die and
wake up in hell?

[mortis]

Originally posted by StSanta:
Atheist, you mean?    

Am picky about that particular word    .

Doh!  yeah, sorry.  I'm usually good at spelling, i guess I'm slipping in that department.  blah!  


oooh, i got rated.  4 stars!  thank ya.  

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: mortis ]

[Kieran]

so maybe you can answer my question: you are ok with the hypothetical monk going to hell for infinity for not professing his faith in christ? you feel the punishment fits the "crime"?

 

It doesn't matter what I am ok with, that is the problem. The point to accepting Jesus is your Savior is that you recognize His control in your life. If you do not allow God to control your life, you are not following Him. If you do not follow Him, you cannot join Him in heaven.

No Christian cheers when anyone follows the road to destruction. Even God states in scripture it is His will that all be saved. The trouble there is He gave everyone the choice.

There are reasons for the analogy of parenthood with the relationship of man to God. We understand things our children don't (but oftentimes think they do). And just like God we are not happy when our children decide to do things they know are against our wishes. We sometimes even have to let them suffer for their decisions, whether or not they intended ill by those decisions.

[leonid]

Wow.  Didn't mean for it to get this involved, but I should have known better.  Though a Buddhist myself now, I have nothing but respect for other religions as well.  The question of existence is integral to who we are, and one that should be faced each and every day

[mrfish]

same old christian buzzwords and phrases....same old christian vagueness and evasion when the tough questions come up.

[Greese]

Mrfish-

     Ask me a question about inconsistencies in the Bible, and I will work on the christian perspective, without the fluff, vagueness, etc.  I tend to get annoyed at christians who are vague and so on, and if you give me a few days, I'll do some research on your issue(s) and come up with something.  I'm talking evidence too, hard argument for the christian perspective.  Don't get me wrong here, though, I am not trying to convert you, but I want a shot at this. As christians, we are called to know the reasons why we believe what we do, and I have spent some time lately trying to back up my own faith with evidence, though I have been a believer for many years now (grew up with it, finally decided that the faith needed to be my own and not just my family tradition).  I'll give you the christian point of view, citing my references, and you can decide on your own.  

-Greese

[mrfish]

thanks greese i appreciate your tenacity!

you should know- i am no stranger to the christian faith. an argument happened at my birth because my father - a german catholic insisted that i be baptised at birth and go through all the little steps to enlightenment.

my mother - a down-home southern church of christ fundamentalist insisted that i would be damned to hell if i didnt get fully immersed at an age in which i could make the decision consciously. i was baptised twice!!   talk about insurance!? sprinkled as a baby in a catholic church and fully immersed at a creek in oklahoma when i was 11.

not being able to stand the strict interpretations of either sect i became an episcopalian on my own due to their tolerance.also i have a little over 12 units in college spent on religious studies as electives and humanities credits.

i even won a free bible in vacation bible school one year for bringing in the most unconverted newcomers(5 as i recall). as a kid i preached to my parents, i preached to school friends i even preached to my dog! as an adult i had trouble making sense of the doctrine.

i decided to give up on church after 1000 or more sundays of conflict, hypocrisy, scandals and money grubbing. i have studied pre-mahayana buddhism since 1997 but calling myself a buddhist would be an insult to those who really try and understand the dhamma(or dharma depending on your language). calling my self an existentialist would be closer but still not 100% accurate. the point is i am not unfamiliar with the bible. i have a simple question:

"will the hypothetical monk go to hell?"

if the answer is "no", then i have a second question:

"where will he go?"

thanks for your help  

[Kieran]

Originally posted by mrfish:
same old christian buzzwords and phrases....same old christian vagueness and evasion when the tough questions come up.

How was I evasive? I answered you directly and honestly- it doesn't matter what I think about the situation. I explained to you how the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior is integral to salvation, and that is what is important. You must have missed that point.

I also said no Christian is happy about a lost soul. What left is there for me to say? What specifically do you wish to hear from me? That I am glad someone burns in hell because they don't think like I do? That seems to be the corner you are trying hard to paint me into. Well, sorry to say that isn't so.

Do I think anyone, regardless of how faultless they perceive themselves to be, can get into heaven without accepting Jesus? No. Not one. Nada. That's pretty direct now, isn't it?

I don't want to come over as sanctimonious; but if you can take what I said before as mere rhetoric, I don't really think you are listening. Do you think this is the first time the old "what about a really great guy who doesn't confess to Jesus" argument has been thrown out there? Want to talk buzzwords and phrases? That argument is as old as Christianity. It's awful, I know, to think that a person can lead a "good life" and be damned, but if this is what you think you are fundamentally flawed in your conception of the relationship of God and man. Man cannot make himself perfect. Man cannot get to heaven unless he is perfect (sinless). Only Jesus can wash away the sin, allowing man to be perfect and able to enter heaven.

Now, if your argument is over baptism, ok, I can understand where people argue over the merits of that act. If you want to talk about salvation, Jesus is the only way.

[hblair]

Originally posted by Kieran:

Now, if your argument is over baptism, ok, I can understand where people argue over the merits of that act. If you want to talk about salvation, Jesus is the only way.

Do you feel that baptism is an important part of becoming a Christian?

[Kieran]

The arguement for/against baptism is its purpose. It is symbolic of washing one's sin away. Some believe the ritual is vital, others don't. I am not sure what I think about that. In my personal experience I know I was saved before the baptism, as I felt the hand of God touch me. That occured when I realized I needed God in my life- that is, it happened at the point of revelation. The act of baptism to me is a covenant with God to follow him.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Kieran:



Do I think anyone, regardless of how faultless they perceive themselves to be, can get into heaven without accepting Jesus? No. Not one. Nada. That's pretty direct now, isn't it?

yes it is thank you. so the monk will be punished in a lake of fire for eternity. settles that question.

[Greese]

Mrfish-

     I am working on a solid answer for your question.  

     In the meantime, I suggest two books that I have found to be VERY good at addressing the difficult questions.  They were written by a guy who was an atheist, and a legal writer for the Chicago Tribune.    He recreates his exploration into christianity, which included all of these questions.

Lee Strobel is the author
"The Case For Christ" (read first)
"The Case For Faith"

Very interesting reading.
-Greese

[Vulcan]

Personally I think the Christian corner is a real cop-out.

Now, the Islamic lot, theres a religion I could respect. Whens the last time a Christian strapped on a couple of kilos of C4 and did an impromptu 4th of July Solo Display? Now thats what I call faith. Nada, they just do the old "Jesus died for our sins" and munch down on another cracker and wash it down with a bottle of sparkling-grape-juice.

[mrfish]

thanks greese but i knew the answer before i asked it. i just want to see people acknowldge they worship a cruel god.

since no one who denies christ as the messiah can get into heaven then the poor monk in my example is doomed. there is only heaven and hell so he is going to hell to burn forever.

have you ever been burned? i touched a hot ember in a pile of ahses trying to dig out a rock once and only had my hand there for 1/16 of a second max. it was in excruciating pain for 2 days afterword.

accoring to christian doctrine my hypothetical monk nows feels this agony for eternity.

what kind of cruel god gives someone 60-70 years to learn all they need to know and reach enlightenment and then - even if they have been righteous still throws them in a lake of fire for all eternity?

what are the sins of my monk? no killing no rape no theft - about the worst thing he ever did was say- dislike someone. how many years of lake of fire will it take for him to pay that off? 10-20 minutes? NO eternity!!

most people i know at the age of 25 barely know what to do with the rest of their lives but if they haven't accepted jesus yet their eternal fate of suffering is sealed.

sick.

[hblair]

Originally posted by mrfish:


yes it is thank you. so the monk will be punished in a lake of fire for eternity. settles that question.

Yep mrfish, it does. It would be nice if we could all just say "You're ok, I'm ok" Let's just all get along, but Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of the Bible. The Bible teaches that you must...

1.Hear Hebrews 11:6; Romans 10:17; Revelation 2:7
2.Believe Hebrews 11:6; Mark 16:16; Acts 16:31
3.Repent Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; 17:30
4.Confess Mathew 10:32-33; 16:16; Acts 8:37-38; Romans 10:10
5.Be Baptized Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; 10:48; 22:16; 1st Peter 3:21
6.Live Faithfully 2nd Peter 1:4-11; 1st Corinthians 10:12; 9:27 2nd Peter 2:20-22

...to be a Christian. There are a lot of denominations (ie. some baptists) who would have you believe that all ya gotta do is believe in Christ and you're going to Heaven. Some tell ya all ya gotta do is say the "sinners prayer" to be saved. Well, the sinners prayer is not even in the Bible. I was raised in a baptist church, and there are things that are done in a baptist church (or not done) that are not even in the Bible. Like, for starters, why is it called the Baptist church? Why would you want to name your church after John the Baptist? He was a great man, but aren't we supposed to worship Christ according to the scriptures? Some denominations are way out there, Catholics for instance, the word Catholic appears not once in the Bible. Traditions of men taking the place of commands of God.

The church I attend with my wife and 3 kids now is one that is modeled after the early Christian church. We follow the scriptures as best we can. If there's areas where we are straying from the scriptures it is not because we aren't trying.

mrfish, I'm sorry to hear of your problems earlier in life. Sounds like a tragedy. I hope that you'll give it another try.


Vulcy, that's not real funny. We're trying to have a semi-serious discussion here.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]