A question for Christians

[leonid]

Do I think anyone, regardless of how faultless they perceive themselves to be, can get into heaven without accepting Jesus? No. Not one. Nada. That's pretty direct now, isn't it?
- Kieran

I have run across this in discussions with people from Maranatha(?) as well.  What I find ironic is that in the Roman Catholic faith, this is not true.  A good agnostic could find themselves in a christian heaven, according to the teachings I had from the Capuchin priests in high school.  Same thing for a Buddhist or Muslim, and so on.  I distinctly remember this, because we put these questions to our teacher, Father George.  We even asked if an atheist could conceivably make it into heaven.  He was very disagreeable with the idea, but acknowledged that it was theoretically possible for such a thing to transpire.

[mrfish]

i hear ya hb - i just dont feel the punishment fits the crime for non-believers. especially when they have lived as righteous people in every other sense. that doesnt suggest a loving god, rather a cruel one.

i do have a lot of respect for anyone who sticks to a faith that has a high moral standard regardless of my personal opinion. especially in a world that could use a dose of humility and compassion.

jesus is still a hero of mine if even if i dont see him as a god. i have a huge poster sized framed picture of him on my wall that i got from a greek orthodox fundraiser in town.

jesus' actions against the money lenders in the temple are my favorite. it is the best scene in the bible in my opinion and sums up everything that is good about honest rebellion. i also appreciate his teachings that devalue the material world over the spiritual and encourage nonviolence.

just cant bite down on that hell thing.dont seem right. lotta good people are going to end up suffering way more than is fair if that's true. if a god is up there he'd at least be fair.

[Kieran]

thanks greese but i knew the answer before i asked it. i just want to see people acknowldge they worship a cruel god.

And I knew from the start your question was insincere, as you had already arrived at your conclusion.

Let me turn it around for you. Do you think you are perfect? Do you know anyone that is?

You make it sound like it is hopeless for the monk; hardly- he has the same choice everyone has. To not recognize Jesus as Savior is rebellion. It is saying "No thanks, I'll do it my way."

Sin separates you from God, pure and simple. Sin is sin is sin. Tough as it is to understand, anyone that sins is just as good or bad as the next fellow. This flies in the face of worldly convention (you mean a shoplifter is a guilty as an axe-murderer in God's eyes? Yes!), yet it makes sense to the believer. God will not allow sin in heaven. You must be made sinless before you can enter heaven. You cannot do this yourself.

Your innocent monk you spoke of will have had the opportunity to turn to Christ before his demise. If he fails to recognize Christ he risks eternal damnation. And as "good" a life as he may lead, are you saying he is sinless?

So, you wanted to hear someone admit they worship a cruel God? You didn't hear that from me. I worship an absolute God, one that says "these are the rules" and those rules apply all the time.

Greece, you may not appreciate the approach I am taking with Mr.Fish. Sorry, I can back this up with scripture but he has already indicated he believes the Word is inconsistant. I don't believe my quoting the Word anymore is going to worth the time.

[Kieran]

Leonid-

Theoretically, if a person is not given the opportunity to know Christ or God then it would be possible. Still, God gives us opportunities and waits for us to come to Him.

Luke 15 tells of the prodigal son. The son is allowed to go his own way. In time he comes to suffer for choosing his own way, not staying in the ways of his father. When he finally realizes his mistake he returns to his father, and finds him waiting with open arms. Had he not returned, he would have expired because of the choices he made.

Luke doesn't say he was evil in the sense of stealing, killing, etc. He said, "the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth on wild living." Luke 15:13 He was merely foolish with his money in the worldly sense, but in the biblical analogy he had chosen to go his own way instead of following his father, and it brought about his ruin.

You're given a choice. If you make the wrong choice you will likely suffer the consequences, yet you can always be forgiven, at any time.

[mrfish]

if greese has a convincing argument i'll change my mind, kieran. at least he has the faith that the bible holds an answer that will convince even me.

"you mean a shoplifter is a guilty as an axe-murderer in God's eyes? Yes"

so they should be punished the same too?

"God will not allow sin in heaven"

that's correct - instead all levels of sin are grouped together into an eternal nightmare.

"You're given a choice. If you make the wrong choice you will likely suffer the consequences, yet you can always be forgiven, at any time. "

so long as you are alive you mean - all that biz about the prodigal son occured before his death. if he had died it would have been too late. once you die you are spending the rest of time suffering horrors. so really you have a few short years to get it perfect.

my value system insists that the punishment fit the crime. i wouldn't beat a child for lying to me i can't follow a god who would condemn a good man for all of time. god is eternal and we are a vapor in time. he should be more patient with is children and not send them to suffer for ever for such meneal sins.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[Hangtime]

Wow.. lemme kick the can once.. see what pops out. Identify the author.. and dispute his observations... if you can.  

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks, please. Cash and in small bills."

(really.. scary ain't it??)

" History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it"

(now which testament was that...?)

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)"

(we need rules, sure... but who's to say we need theirs?)

"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history."

(vengance is Mine!!!)

"Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it."

(HEADLINE:.. Religion Debunked, Theologists  Not Amused)

"There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.' "

(i kinda liked that one.  )

"potatos perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly. "

(hehehhe.. now THATS on the money)

"The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned ...Our hymns were loaded with arrogance -- self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day."

(Oh yah. Burn in hell; baby!!  )

"  I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe. "

(now then; what was it the buddists were saying about muhommed??)

[Sandman]

Originally posted by hblair:

...to be a Christian. There are a lot of denominations (ie. some baptists) who would have you believe that all ya gotta do is believe in Christ and you're going to Heaven.

Here's why:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[leonid]

mr.fish,

There really is no use in getting upset about the belief system of Christianity.  I made a choice over a decade ago to leave my faith of birth, Roman Catholicism, and I suspect you may have had a similar decision in your life.  We have made our choice.  Kieran merely states what his faith demands he believe in, as well he surely does.  There is nothing wrong in that.  Nowhere has Kieran stated that he must shun us, because of our decision.  As far as Kieran is concerned, our choice was made with God, not him.

Besides, there has to be some sort of mutual respect among faiths, no matter how resolute one faith may be in its belief.

[Kieran]

I doubt it. You have already interpreted something completely different from what I have said in order to confirm what you already believe. Your question for me was very transparent, illucidating clearly your intent. You knew the answer I would have to give, and your response to that answer was already in the can. But, rather than examine the explanation I offered for the answer to your question you jumped right to "I just wanted to hear a Christian admit they worship a cruel God." Indeed you have called such explanations:

 

"...same old christian buzzwords and phrases....same old christian vagueness and evasion when the tough questions come up."

The truth is in the Bible, but unless you have an open mind about it you will never see it. It is like when Jesus would tell parables; the truth was hidden from most of the people, even though the analogies were quite clear. If you heart and mind aren't prepared to hear the truth you will simply wait for your opportunity to knock holes in it.

Leonid, that is it to a "T". I work with unbelievers, I grew up in a family of atheists, and I think they are all good people. I speak to them about God when the opportunity presents itself, but I certainly don't hold myself above them nor do I shun them at all. You are exactly right, their decisions are between them and God. I don't think of myself as better than anyone in God's eyes. I am not perfect, not even close.

[Vulcan]

HB who said I was joking? Seriously Christians talk about how much faith you should have in god etc etc, but look at the Islamic guys... thats the ultimate FAITH. None of that give us your $$$ and we'll deliver you. Its a raw religion which says give me your LIFE.

Hang, when some of my buddhist friends first came to NZ, the people who helped them get here immediately rolled them into a Christian church. For a few months they went, and really got into it and the ideas etc. Then one day one of the Church crowd went round to their house. He saw the buddhist shrines, pictures etc, and told them they must destroy these (or chuck em out or whatever) as these went against the teachings of God. Their response was "why can't we believe both at once?", the church guy said "because thats the way of god".

Well, they said nice religion but see ya later bud, and went back to just buddhism. Buddhism in its purest form is merely a way of life, not a religion. The difference in openness to new ideas between these people and the Christian community is phenomonal isn't it? (and in my opinion refreshing).

Religion is many things: its a primitive form of government; its a way to explain all those things we don't understand (admit the Sun revolves around the Earth or we will BURN you heretic!); its a way to cope with the fact that we are mortal, and when we die the only place we go is the gut of a worm!

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
"  I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe. "

(now then; what was it the buddists were saying about muhommed??)

[hblair]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:


Here's why:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yes, that's probably the most well known verse of the Bible. Very comforting. But read the verses before and after that, did Christ say that was ALL a person needs to do? Read the verses below, they tell us that we must repent of our sins, but nowhere does it say that repenting is all that is required:

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
-------------------------------------

The following verses say ya gotta believe and be baptized, they don't mention that baptism is ALL ya gotta do:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My point is that there is more than just one thing to be done to be a righteous Christian.

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups, you gotta know your Bible, and be a Student of the Bible.

[Kieran]

Well said, HBlair.

Vulcan, ever hear of that "Throw the Christians to the lions" thingy?   Are you not aware of missionary work done around the world? Ever hear of Mother Teresa?

I could argue that in some ways it is easier to commit one final act of allegience than it is to suffer a lifetime of discomfort in silence. I am not in any way discounting the commitment of the Islamic religion; but are you really saying Islam is better because its followers make great human bombs?

[hblair]

Originally posted by Vulcan:
HB who said I was joking? Seriously Christians talk about how much faith you should have in god etc etc, but look at the Islamic guys... thats the ultimate FAITH. None of that give us your $$$ and we'll deliver you. Its a raw religion which says give me your LIFE.

I thought we were talking about Christians here, not just people who said they were Christians. You'll know a real Christian by his fruits (deeds)

Anybody who says "gimme your money to go to heaven" is *not* a Christian.

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

[mrfish]

the question was :

does the monk go to hell?

your "answer" was:

"It doesn't matter what I am ok with, that is the problem.(that's not an answer) The point to accepting Jesus is your Savior is that you recognize His control in your life.(that's not an answer and contains two buzzphrases) If you do not allow God to control your life, you are not following Him.(that's closer but no cigar still and ripe with rhetoric) If you do not follow Him, you cannot join Him in heaven.(so where do you go if you dont join him - almost an answer, you were close there)

No Christian cheers when anyone follows the road to destruction.(the buddhist monk in my example was on a road to destruction?) Even God states in scripture it is His will that all be saved.(so whats the purpose of creating evil as an option is it a game where the losers suffer for eternity?) The trouble there is He gave everyone the choice.(still no answer)

There are reasons for the analogy of parenthood with the relationship of man to God.(does this still pertain to the question of wheher the monk goes to hell or not?) We understand things our children don't (but oftentimes think they do). And just like God we are not happy when our children decide to do things they know are against our wishes. We sometimes even have to let them suffer for their decisions(is that one of the mysterious hints i should have deciphered?), whether or not they intended ill by those decisions."(nope-no answer)


you should maybe leave the mysterious parables to jesus. i am looking for an answer more like "yes he goes to hell" or "no, some other thing happens"

the fact that i already knew what you would say has been mentioned in your previous threads and i have already answered that charge. i'm sorry it seems to be your only foothold in this discussion but i've said it once i'll repeat - yes i do know what the bible says but if you can explain to me that i am mistaken i will change my mind. that stands for every opinion i hold.

"I work with unbelievers, I grew up in a family of atheists, and I think they are all good people" - and according to you they will all suffer eternally when they die. do you ever think of that when you are hangin' with em? does the punishment of eternal fire seem adequate for their sins?

when i say i just want people to admit they believe in this wacked out god this is the root of it. people can respect their friends and family and still believe that they should fry eternally when they die. in admitting it i'm hoping the absurdity of it will surface.

"The truth is in the Bible, but unless you have an open mind about it you will never see it." - no that's what this thread is about. the real truth is not inconsistent and cruel. the bible is full of inconsistencies and therefore can not be the truth. again you never answered my question btw: how many angels and how many marys were at the sepulcher? being a christian is the furthest thing from having an open mind - it requires you to turn off your logic completely and have faith.

i do respect people with other faiths so long as they are humble and down to earth about it. and especially when they can explain what they believe with clarity instead of rhetoric. i can't stand people who prance around saying things like "i hang out with sinners all the time" wow how generous. i am not trying to change your mind only to point out that christians have some harsh doctrine and should just admit it.

why don't you just say "yes - the monk will fry for eternity and that punishment is just and fair because the lord says so" ? i dont need explanations, i can draw my own conclusions from the answer. if your god supports this thats all i need to know - save the sermon. why pad it - if you believe it own it.

[Wingnut_0]

In the Beginning God created the Universe V1.0.

God's publisher demanded he rush his creation out the door whether it was finished or not.  After many peoples cried of the travesty God was forced to release version 1.01.

Even after the fact cries are still heard that the Flight Model is not right.

Wingnut