A question for Christians

[R4M]

Heehe leonid you should know better...in this board there are 3 kind of threads bound to go over 100 posts.....religion, politics and N1K2s   .

I dont think is bad to discuss this matters, what i think is bad is to keep a closed mind towards other's points instead of giving a deep thought to it.

What is me,(and I dont have even 1% the knowledge of religion that most people who have talked here), I am a christian. Not a catholic. I think there is a god and maybe for being raised as a catholic, in a catholic school (jesuits), I have a predisposition to believe in the catholic god. Still I dont think catholicism is right, and I'm a christian in a very very personal way.

First of all for all those who use the bible as a book of reference, be sure that the bible cant be used as a reliable reference, starting from the Genesis story we see lots of errors and contradictions. The Old Testament is a compendium of books wich show a god to be feared, a god who in some ways reaches the point of being cruel. Suddenly after Christ comes he turns into a God of Love, and our Father. The radical change does not make sense, sorry, and this is just one of the examples on how the bible is not reliable.

Now what I do believe is in Christ, in Jesus. Wich means that I believe in his message, and so I also believe in the Father. I believe in the message he gives, in the God of Love he talks about. I believe in that all of us humans are brothers.

I think there is a god up there, somewhere. And a god who knows better than us (not hard after reading some messages here   ). I find curious that there is any kind of discussion wether the Jews, Budists, Animists, etc etc etc will be saved or will burn in hell for not believing in god. As I understand, he who is a good man, and follows the natural good/bad rules, will get saved regardless he is a christian or not.

I dont think there is a hell. I dont dare to say a word about what will happen after we die, because I think that ANYTHING we can think is not enough (we live and think in 4 dimensions, and within a very limited scope, so I simply believe that we can't really theorize about what will happen when we are freed of those rules).

On the other hand, I am sure that there is no hell, nor a Satan, red, with a tail, a fork and beard, who lives in a place full of flames to torture the souls of the damned forever.

I think that many conceptions we have about God, Jesus, after-life, etc, are purely human. I think that the Catholic church is a fraud (as almost all the churchs in the world). I think that sometimes the atheists (I hope I've spelled it right, santa   ) are closer to the truth than the ortodox religious people...because at least they look and believe on the natural laws of the good and bad. And if they are "natural laws" is because they were there, implemented on our nature. Who implemented them?  

in other words, I believe that Santa will get saved even when he is a dirty atheist   , but I think that many self-proclaimed religious authorities wont, even when they are christians and baptized. (whatever it means that they wont be saved...this is one of the few concepts I dont really understand). In fact I think that the whole discussion about if hte non-christians will be saved or not is simply moot. There have been lots of men in history, after Christ's message, who never heard a word of Christianism. And there were lots people who knew catholicism and refused to accept it. During 14 centuries the Church of Rome has been a place of corruption and immoral standards. To say that the people who were in that church were all saved while the others who werent crhistians were not, does not make sense, and I simply dont give it a second thought.

Well I?m talking too much and I am sure that noone cares of what I think   but I wanted to give some thoughts on what do I think on this pollemic.

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[mrfish]

so ram, correct me if i misinterpret you please. you believe that:

- there is no hell or place where sinners and nonbelievers go after death.

- there is a heaven where good people go after death.

- you don't have to believe in or accept christ as the one true savior to go to heaven.

- baptism is irrelevant in determining your eternal disposition.

is that right? it seems to me that there are many posting here that believe in a 'christ-based' religion, but not biblical christianity. i think strict christians would want to make that disticntion in much the way that agnostics don't like being lumped with atheists.

[hblair]

Originally posted by R4M:
Now what I do believe is in Christ, in Jesus. Wich means that I believe in his message, and so I also believe in the Father. I believe in the message he gives, in the God of Love he talks about.

 

Originally posted by R4M:
I dont think there is a hell.

You just said you believe in Christ and his teachings, then a couple of sentences later, you say there is no hell. Christ said there was a hell, This is Christ himself speaking:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[SOB]

Maybe he's talking about Hellfire Ale?

[Nash]

Lol SOB  

One thing I don't get is this whole burn in hell for eternity thing. How does that work exactly? Is it just hot enough to be uncomfortable? Or does it hurt? If it hurts, won't you pass out eventually due to pain? Then you wouldn't feel it I guess... so no biggie. Or, does Satan thrust smelling salts under yer nose so you remain awake to feel it? But I mean, yer prolly gonna pass out anyways through smoke inhalation, right? Or do you wear some kind of oxygen mask? I guess the sinners of the middle ages didn't get access to that technology though. What's Satan's budget anyways? (Hmm... I wonder if Satan has access to the internet... Maybe @home or AOL or something). Also, what if you have to go to the bathroom? Does he make you hold it while burning you? If not I would take that opportunity to try and make a break for it. Has anyone successfully escaped?

One thing that would be pretty cool is to see the peoples from all throughout history... like ancient and geographically remote cultures that ended up there simply because the missionaries didn't get to them in time to teach them about Jesus and stuff. I bet they're pretty pissed about that. Ah well, life aint fair. Erhm, the afterlife, anyways.

[StSanta]

I have now access to the internet, gene manipulation and so forth.

It is true that in the good old days, we just built a big fire and threw people onto them for a bit, then took them off so they wouldn't pass out all the time and then threw them on again. So they burned in hellfire "forever2 in terms of having to repeat that bit forever, but they weren't actually on the fire forever.

Now, thanks to modern advances, we've got far more sophisticated equipment. My collection of Boy Band songs is one of the best. Also, we now genetically manipulate the CNS of people so they are in constant pain.

This has done wonders for my economy, as I've got a monopoly on pain killers. I should have thought about this before.

[R4M]

Originally posted by hblair:


You just said you believe in Christ and his teachings.

No, I say I believe in his MESSAGE. His "teachings" are based in the bible, a book written by humans, translated by humans and I'm sure that modified by humans   .

The message of Jesus, as I understand it is very simple:

"Love each other as I've loved you."

I think that this phrase sums it up pretty well. You dont need to believe in a god, a christ, a baptism, to save your soul (Even if you dont believe you have a soul). YOu have to respect and love your brothers, and try to act with good faith. You have to act according to the natural laws we all have since we are born.


Mrfish; no, I dont believe there is a hell. I dont know what heaven is, and that is the reason I dont make teories about it. I think is a status we can't even taste in our current life because our senses and minds are simply too closed in our perceptions of how is the world we live in.

Thus, I cant say what is exactly what the sinners have to "pay" for their sins because I dont know what "reward" do the good guys get after life.

Maybe the sinners have to live again, rebirth to live a painful life so he learns not to sin... Maybe is another thing. I dont know what it is, but If there is a God wich loves us and cares for us I wont EVER believe that such a god, claimed to be god of LOVE, sends souls to hell forever, to suffer in the eternal flames because in their terrenal lifes have been sinners.

I deny that and say that it is not possible. If God exists and is a God of Love, as I believe, then Hell can't exist.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

[Greese]

MRFISH-

     It's about time I answered your questions.
     If there was an easy answer to these questions, I have no doubt many more people would be christinans.  The truth is, that the answers take a lot of investigating, and hard evidence that I can't possibly write it all here.  Read the books I reccomend, do a little footwork on your own, and YOU WILL come up with the same answers for yourself.  
     Regarding the inconsistencies of the New Testament, using your example of "how many Mary's and how many angels were at the Sepulcher", or how can the New Testament be inspired, when it appears as though there are some flaws, or inconsistencies?
     First off, everything you need to answer this question is in a bok that I recomended to you, called "The Case For Christ".  The author is far more eloquent and entertaning than I am.  I will summarize what I have learned.
     When it comes to eye-witness testimony, which is what the gospels (the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)are, one thing that actually validates it are little inconsistencies.  If several people went to a party, then were each separated some time later, they may each have different things to say about the party, who they saw there, what music was played, so on.  It is not that they are wrong, it is that each took something different away from the event.  If theeir stories matched identically, police might even invalidate the testimony because it appears "too perfect". If the New Testament gospels matched up exactly, it might show that the authors merely copied one another's stories.  Also, we need to understand that the details that are in dispute are not ones that affect doctrine, they are details that appear inconsistent, but when put into context, and evaluated with other historical documents, etc. They are quite accurate.

     The bottom line answer to your question, is that there might not be a clear answer, but what difference does it make how many Mary's and how many angels WERE there?  Because of evidence I have investigated, and am only touching upon here, I have decided that the New Testament is solid truth, but it's a long complicated journey to reach this conclusion.

     Your second question, regarding a good monk going to hell.  This question, and others like it, are explored in a second book I highly reccommend, "The Case For Faith".  I cannot do teh reading for you, I can only sum up what I know and hope that you will investigate it on your own.
          The truth is, to directly answer your question, is that the "good" monk will go to Hell.  

     About Hell.  I imagine that you, growing up in a fundamentalist home, God may have been painted as a "Ruler" who put a good check mark next to your name whenever you did something right, and a bad check every time you did something wrong.  When it was time for you to be "judged", you had better hope you had lived up to God's expectations.  Unfortunately, many fundamentalist denominations believe this is the case with God, and he'd rather send us "to a pit of boiling lava to spend eternity" than have someone who is less than righteous in his kingdom.
     This is a very poor painting of the God of the Bible.  The truth is, that there is no one who is righteous enough to make it on his or her own, but God has provided the fix to the problem, in Jesus.  God wants us to be with him, in his Kingdom, but he only wants people who chose to follow him.  That way, he knows their faith is true.  Hell is decribed a few different ways in the Bible, I would say that mostly it is NOT described as a place where you will burn forever in complete pain and anguish, but more it is described as the absence of God.  There are a verse or two that talk about fire, but those who use BIG FLAMING PITS to try to win you to christianity are defeating the point.  

     The Biblical answer is solid, but it can be tough to swallow.  I would HIGHLY recommend reading those two books I mentioned.  Like I said, i can sum up the answers for you, but if you really want to investigate this on your own, order them from Amazon or your library.  Don't go to a christian bookstore unless you want to get robbed (sorry, personal soapbox there...)

a website that is also good...

-edit-

     the good link to a site that uses REAL science to prove the Bible is

     www.reasons.org

-edit (again)
     
If you do read these books, I guarantee you will not only be enlightened, but also entertained.  They are well written, and provide solid evidence for the Bible, without the catch phrases...  
     I hope I have helped, but I know you will need more than just my pitiful answer.  I could copy the entire book for the bbs if you really want, but you might find it easier to read on your own.

-Greese

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Greese ]

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Greese ]

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Greese ]

[Greese]

Kieran-

     The truth, as we know it, is all contained in the Bible.  The problem is, that it is hard to prove the Bible with the Bible, you know what I mean?  God says he blesses those who believe without evidence, but in this world, I completely understand why people just don't take this stuff without proof.  There is an awful lot of crap being spewed by people under the guise of christianity.  
     For starters, a lot of people here have been mentioning their catholic background, and pointing out differences that they see with some of the things we are toaking of here, and what their religion has taught them.  Catholicism and christianity (protestantism) are so far apart that I don't see how people can attach doctrines from one into the theology of the other.  It would be very easy just to see the small similarities between the two, and assume they believe the same things.  
     It is sad that in this world there is so much that isn't true masquerading around as christianity, but the Bible tells us this is something we can expect, and even though I would love it if everybody just took the Bible as truth and looked to it for all answers, there are tough questions out there that need real scholars to investigate and answer (not that I am).  
     I often think of proving the Bible to be alot like the the science behind wind, and the air we breath.  Sure, we all know it exists, and we have all seen the scientific proof behind air, wind, etc.  I would bet, though, that if you went to just anyone on the street and asked them to scientifically explain the air they are breathing right now, not very many would come up with the correct answer.  They just take it for granted that the air is there, they are breathing it, and it blows around.  They have heard the evidence at one point, but as the air we breathe is so real to them, why remember the details?  As christians, even though we shouldn't have to have evidence for what we believe, which we do as strongly as the air that we breathe, it is good to back up our faith with other things other than the Bible so that if a non-christian comes to us for evidence, we should provide something in terms they can understand.  I wish churches would teach apologetics, because I have seen far more evidence than I need to believe, but people don't get the evidence presented to them very well, see my message to MRFISH above.  I am horrible at presenting what I know, but I can at least point him in a direction (I hope he goes there) that might provide answers that I can only try to sum up.

-Greese

[mrfish]

greese said:

"one thing that actually validates it are little inconsistencies"

- what a simple argument - yet, that is the single strongest argument i have heard to date; in or outside of this forum!

it seems to me, however, that this necessitates a lot of interpretation of the bible messages. to me this leads to the question: "who do i then believe when the interpretations are so different?" ie - catholic vs baptist for example or lutheran vs russian orthodox. perhaps the message gets lost via the messenger sometimes?

also:

"Hell is decribed a few different ways in the Bible, I would say that mostly it is NOT described as a place where you will burn forever in complete pain and anguish, but more it is described as the absence of God"

- i also agree with you here. i have even heard it claimed by translators that the word hell was incorrectly translated in a few instances. the actual reference referred to a garbage pit at the edge of town where fires burned night and day because people burned their trash their.

the bums of the day collected there to pick through the trash for food - the inplication being: if you don't follow god you could end up a bum whose shabby and immoral lifestyle has brought you only sorrow. some claim this is the lake of fire translation but i can't validate that because i don't speak hebrew or greek or aramaic and can't directly translate the texts.

however, i still find it difficult to accept a god that designs people to be flawed and then punishes them for not fixing them selves. seems that even the basic design of our planet could have been done with much less potential for anguish.

why make life feed from life for example? why not make us capable of sustaining ourselves from inert matter? why use tools like starvation and disease as population controls? - why not divinely affect birth rates or something equally inobtrusive? isn't that a more compassionate solution?

why design war, torture, rape, pollution and little kids with cancer into your 'greater unseen plan'? i mean, if you're god, was there really no better route to accomplish your aim?

i can only speak from my personal meager human perspective, but if i set out to design a universe i wouldn't even create evil in the 1st place i would simply make it unnecessary. why make flawed people and punish them for your failure? seems like a god should be able to nail that one.

some people claim evil has to be there to act symmetrically so that good exists at all. to me this suggests god is working within a set of predetermined guidelines which then suggests another power greater than god. at any rate if it has to be here we are we trying to defeat it? and if we are trying to defeat then it served no purpose in the first place...circle circle circle  

your post makes a lot of sense and is refreshingly free of canned christian rhetoric - you paint a biblically consistent picture of god as well imo at least. thanks! <S>

[Kieran]

Understand how analogies work in the Bible. God is referred to as "Father", and many of the parables are told in the parental context. This was because it was an illustrative manner to convey the feelings of God. Jesus also was referred to as the Shephard, and not surprisingly his audience was largely sheep herders. Look at all the analogies and you can see the common theme.

I've wondered about the lake of fire within the context of analogies, and considered if this was merely the most agonizing picture that could be painted. I don't know.

[Greese]

-Quote-it seems to me, however, that this necessitates a lot of interpretation of the bible messages. to me this leads to the question: "who do i then believe when the interpretations are so different?" ie - catholic vs baptist for example or lutheran vs russian orthodox. perhaps the message gets lost via the messenger sometimes?
-Quote-

Well, This is one of those things that many scholars have questioned for a long time.  The best thing that can be said is that there are scholars who have done a lot of work on this, and if you want solid answers, read their research.  Aside from that, there are things to take into consideration when interpreting the Bible, I find one of the most important is CONTEXT.  Who wrote it, who were they writing it to, what was the social situation in the environment that it was written in, etc etc etc.  Also, in what style of writing did the author use to convey an idea.  Jesus himself used a lot of poetry in his teachings, quite possibly so that it would commit to memory easier (little known fact.  Of course, it doesn't translate to english as poetry).  One can also investigate by doing word by word studies in the actual language the scripture was written in.

     As far as who do you believe when it comes to denominations?  Well, I have a simple, but hard to hear answer.  That is that you must investigate for yourself what the TRUTH is, then go where you hear the truth taught.  It sounds like a big headache, but once you get some basic fundamentals of your faith figured out, finding a good church is easy.  Go to a church's webpage, or visit with the pastor.  Find out how their beliefs line up with your own investigations.  You would be amazed at how many churches are off base for one reason or another.  I can't explain it myself.  But once you have decided about your core beliefs, it is easier to narrow it down.  I myself find that there are good and bad churches in almost every denomination.  There are some churches that have split off from the main denomination for some really dumb stuff, but apparently it was important enough to put the church body through a split to prove a point.  Prime example is music within the church.  People have "interpreted" the Bible to say a lot of different things about music in the church, but what I have found is that it mostly says to use music, in all forms, to the glory of God.  Now how that gets interpreted into "Rock and Roll is of the Devil" is something I'll never agree with, but it happens.  I know this is a basic example, but this is how I would go about figuring out what is right or wrong.  Go to a concordance, which is a book in which you can look up just about any word that is in the Bible.  Find out all the veses that mention "Music" and read those verses IN CONTEXT (read the other verses around that scripture that you looked up).  Find out what the Bible actually says.  If you have further questions, don't give up, find someone who is credible to help you find out.

As far as your other issues, I am going to study that for a while, because I know the "christian" answer to that, but it will be a hard one to swallow.  

Read "The Case For Faith"

I cannot recommend that book, or it's predecessor "The Case For Christ" enough.

Read them both for much more entertaining reading and solid answers.  

-Greese

[Greese]

Quick note on the whole christianity and money issue...

     I'm sorry to say that the whole giving to the church has been taken way beyond what it was intended to be.  There are a lot of jokers on TBN who will try to tell you that God will bless you if you give your money to the TBN preacher.  Give it all up, that way you will never go through any hurt, pain, etc.

     That sort of Health and Wealth theology is completely backwards from what the Bible asks of us.  

     First off, supporting a church is something you should choose to do because you agree with their ministry.  It is the only way a church can thrive, is off the contributions of it's members.  It can be extremely uncomfortable, though, when it get's to that time in the service where everyone pulls out their money and puts it into the basket.  Well, it is the curse of being a christian that no matter what week we choose to bring a visitor, it will be the week they preach on stewardship.  AAUUUGGHH.  However, one big part of any ministry is asking for money.  Unfortunately, a lot of churches turn that into a much bigger issue than it needs to be, and the end result is the image they have created of the poor, poor rich well dressed preacher standing on a stage all in gold, asking for you, who probably just spent your last 10 buck on a pizza, to send it in to them so God can Bless you.  What a bunch of crap.  We are called to give, but it needs to be a decision that you make to support a ministry, not one that someone is forcing you into with claims of salvation, God's blessings, whatever.  Salvation only comes through Jesus, and blessings come because you choose to follow the teachings in the Bible.  Blessings come in all kinds of forms also, usually not what we are expecting.

*climbs down off soapbox*

*climbs back on soapbox for a second*

And most christian bookstores are the worst example of christain living and business practices that I have come across.

*stumbles, falls off soapbox*

-Greese

[BOOT]

Originally posted by mrfish:
thanks greese i appreciate your tenacity!

you should know- i am no stranger to the christian faith.
my mother - a down-home southern church of christ fundamentalist

"will the hypothetical monk go to hell?"

if the answer is "no", then i have a second question:

"where will he go?"

thanks for your help  

mrfish:

I wasn't going to even get into this thread because I don't really feel qualified to make any kind of statement... BUT when I read your post about your upbringing I felt I had to comment...

I was brought up in a fundementalist family and my upbringing was similar to yours. Although I had it a bit tougher due to the fact that both of my parents were like your mother...  I don't know you... But I do know the struggles I went through with both myself and my family and my own mental anguish at trying to figure out where God Really did fit into life...

Unfortunately religion has its extremeists on both ends...  The place in any religion or any area of life is to be in balance...
Which is easier said than done...

I don't believe that the hypothetical Monk would go to hell... (even though if I went back to my earliest teachings it would tell me that he would)  I used to get in trouble in Sunday School Classes because I would raise the same kind of question... I wasn't being a smart alec I just really wanted to hear why such cases would be dealt with so harshly...

I do believe that the Monk would be rewarded for all of his good works while here on earth... We all do that to some extent... The same as we reap harvests of our own mistakes...

I do NOT believe that Hell is a fire and brimstone torture chamber for lost souls...

I DO believe that EVIL will be destroyed in the lake of fire, along with all that followed evil paths while in this life on earth... Evil of heart...

I DO believe there is a heaven and all persons that believe will be in various levels of Heaven based on their actions while on earth...  But more so from the intent in their hearts as opposed to their Works...

You may be able to shed light on this for me ?

I have read and read trying to find out where all the torture and burning in fire for eternity comes from...  I do not see it in the Bible when I read it myself...  I only have seen the part about that Evil will be cast in the Eternal Lake of Fire...
Fire purifies...  Therefore Evil is destroyed on that day...  I have read outside of the Bible that the Early Catholic Church installed the torture chamber theory in their books...

Anyway...  I figure the Gospel is such a simple thing to live, that Hey, why not just believe in Jesus as the Christ and be safe...
I mean, I don't know of any religions that say I will go to hell for believing in Christ...  I have read that many feel that I would be wrong.. But not that I would go to hell for that belief...

Well enuf from me...
Fast Forward to Posts by people more Qualified...  

BOOT

[mrfish]

Originally posted by BOOT:


You may be able to shed light on this for me ?

I have read and read trying to find out where all the torture and burning in fire for eternity comes from...  I do not see it in the Bible when I read it myself

fair enough question. here are some resources though they are hardly exhaustive:


Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,       PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS."

Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."

Revelation 20:12, 15, "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Matthew 18:8, 9 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Matthew 25:46, "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Isaiah 66:24, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh."

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Jude 7, "Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Matthew 22:13, "...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-42, "The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of         fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and potatomongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Psalm 9:17, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become
weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Daniel 12:2, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt."


pretty gruesome eh?


Originally posted by BOOT: "Hey, why not just believe in Jesus as the Christ and be safe..."

lol.....well that's one way to do it. my personal ethos doesn't allow for an insurance belief but i am not especially critical of those who have such beliefs.

i try to be a straight shooter and i think if i were going to be a christian i would have to understand and follow the doctrine as close to the letter as i could. if you're gonna do it - do it! - ya know?

i think many have luke warm beliefs and that isn't healthy spiritually - many pick the parts they like and dismiss the rest -

if that's allowable then i guess i'm already a christian because i can find a great deal of jesus' message that appeals to me. being a true christian means buying into the whole deal imo good bad and indifferent. (that coming from me from course, if you can take advice on being a good christian from a doomed soul    )

"i'm on a hiiiiiiiiiiiiighwaaaaaayyyyy to heelllllllllll" bon scott, 1979 (r.i.p. bon!)- sorry couldn't resist, best rock album ever made.