Author Topic: American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?  (Read 3613 times)

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8802
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2006, 10:37:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
I'll really need to see some documentation of that allegation.  As far as I've been able to determine, Yeager was the first man to exceed the speed of sound.  He did it in Bell Lab's X-1 rocket plane.


I've done more research on this one topic than most college students do in the course of 4 years.

I've talked with Welch's son, and other family members. I've talked to witnesses and more than a few people out at Dryden and Edwards AFB. I've spent many hours interviewing test pilots who flew with Welch as well as USAAF pilots who flew with George in the Pacific. There's absolutely no doubt that Welch beat Yeager... None. The total weight of evidence is overwhelming.

By the way, I never cease to be amazed at how much wikipedia material is blatant plagiarizing of copyrighted property. Their comments on Welch were taken from Al Blackburn's book and/or my articles in Flight Journal and on the web without any accreditation to either author.

Back in 1998, I had the opportunity to review the final draft manuscript of Al Blackburn's book, Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One. Al was a North American test pilot, and he worked under Welch. Al's book chronicles the events occurring at Muroc back in the summer and fall of 1947. Al presents tremendous evidence that Welch beat Yeager, and did so while incurring the wrath of the Air Force and Stuart Symington. When Al's book was released in 1999, it started a firestorm which has not abated yet. On the dust jacket are brief review blurbs written by the former Director of the National Aviation and Space Museum, Walter Boyne and former Secretary of the Air Force, John McLucas. Oh yeah, my review is on the dust cover too, just above theirs..  ;)

I went a bit further than Blackburn, taking the time to gather a concensus from members of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. Virtually to a man, those I spoke with agree that Welch beat Yeager. I followed up by tracking down additional family members and members of the North American team. Everything I uncovered only reaffirmed what Blackburn had already established.

It's a long, long story and I cannot tell it here with any justice. However, you can read about Welch in detail, in my article The Amazing George Welch.

This article presents not only Welch's supersonic exploits, but his remarkable war record as well. Read the piece and you'll have a much better understanding of what happened back then and why it happened.

Did you know that Welch was also the first man to exceed Mach 1 in level flight in an air-breathing aircraft? He did this on the maiden flight of the first Super Sabre (YF-100, there was no XF-100).

I am in the process of writing an in-depth piece on Welch, having learned much more about his career and personal life since my previous articles were published almost 6 years ago. I have a considerable collection of photos, including some taken when Welch was flying with the 80th FS of the 8th FG. Welch was credited with 16 kills in WW2, including four at Pearl Harbor. That excludes several kills that, according to squadron mates, Welch never bothered to submit paperwork for.

Just so people know, Welch and Yeager worked together on many occasions. If Welch needed a USAF chase pilot, he always asked for Yeager. For his part, Yeager held Welch in very high esteem, but thought that Welch took too many chances, and he was right.

When the USAF stated that the XS-1 was the first supersonic aircraft, they lied deliberately. Admitting that a privately funded jet fighter prototype had done it first would have undermined the credibility of the newly minted USAF. It also would likely have forced a review of their research budget by Congress. An Air Force plane piloted by an Air Force pilot HAD to do it first, or the consequences could be far reaching. Moreover, Larry Bell was a personal friend of Truman, and the President had stated that Bell would get the first opportunity at the sound barrier. Of course, George Welch was flying an aircraft that was capable of greater than Mach 1 in a shallow dive. Welch didn't give a damn what the Air Force said and with the eye-winking blessing of XP-86 program manager, took the XP-86 to at least Mach 1.02 on its maiden flight. He repeated this two weeks later to the day, and about an hour before Yeager pushed the XS-1 to Mach 1.06 in a slight climb.

Virtually everyone at Muroc understood that Welch had swiped the thunder of the XS-1 program. However, the XS-1 was classified program and the USAF clamped a lid on the story as soon as it leaked. They postponed any official announcement that the XP-86 had gone supersonic until April of 1948. Nonetheless, NACA Officially clocked the XP-86 at Mach 1.04 on November 13, 1947. Welch flew the same profile he had previously flown on the 1st and 14th of October. Despite this, the USAF felt it necessary to delay releasing this to the press to protect their research programs. In fact, the USAF had no specific time table for announcing anything on either the XS-1 or the XP-86. Its hand was forced when a reporter for Aviation Week magazine leaked the story of the XS-1 flight in the December 1947 issue.

By the way, almost no one knows that Welch spent time in Japan and Korea demonstrating the F-86. According to a family member, Welch flew 11 combat sorties with the 4th Fighter Wing over North Korea. His log book reportedly shows that George claimed to have shot down three MiG-15s during two of those sorties. No official claims were filed as Welch was not supposed to be flying combat missions. These kills were assigned to pilots in the squadron by drawing cards. Until I get copies of the log book pages, I can't make that claim in print. Currently, this is the one item holding up the project. If and when we can get the reclusive Jay Welch to allow examination or partial copying of his dad's log book, then I can get it finished and off to the publisher. Jay answers e-mails infrequently if at all, so I'm trying to enlist the help of his cousins.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 10:41:15 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2006, 01:31:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OOZ662
Yeager became an Ace in a Day by knocking down German training planes. He was also shot down.

His superior (rank wise) Bud Anderson says the P-51 and German rides were VERY closely matched in ways of performance. His book, To Fly and Fight; Memoirs of a Triple Ace, is a very good read.

I think it's a sense of nationalism that makes these claims sprout up. HT has come forward many times to say that they use the most reliable information they have at the time to model the aircraft; unbiased as possible.


     Me-109 training planes?
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2006, 02:36:22 AM »
Emm,, this:
"Gunther Rall (Günther Rall, Guenther Rall) said that he liked the 109F the best. He also said he liked 262's and Ponies (he flew some of the captured planes while teaching new group leaders). But most of his kills (totaling 275) are in a 109G, I'd imagine."

He liked the 109F out of the 109's
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline BlauK

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5091
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2006, 05:27:09 AM »
So, what do these Chuck Yeager's valid opinions say about AH2's American rides being under modelled or LW rides being broken? :rolleyes:


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9504
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2006, 07:10:20 AM »
Quote
Currently, this is the one item holding up the project. [/B]

Really excellent research, Widewing, thanks for posting this.

- oldman

Offline Ghosth

  • AH Training Corps (retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8497
      • http://332nd.org
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2006, 07:39:32 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Yeager.

But the fact is that if he hadn't been chosen to fly as a test pilot.
Most of you would never have heard of him.

There are many WWII Aces with many many more kills, explots, etc.
That are never ever heard of. Never talked about, and seldom refered to.

Yeager happened to be good enough, and lucky enough to get picked for the X series as a test pilot. I also do believe the man likes the limelight a bit.  :)

Both of which played in his favor.

When it comes to who has a better feel for WWII airplanes, I'd rather hear from Bong or a host of other  WWII Aces who had more time in theatre, more kills, and more combat than Yeager.

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2006, 08:36:02 AM »
Yeager also thought very highly of the P-39 at low altitudes dogfighting with it.

I don't know if he was the best pilot but he certainly wrote one of the best books I have read from former aviators.

There are at least a few pilots credited with 5 or more kills in a single mission.

Boyington, O'Hare, and Dave McCampbell who shot down 9 airplanes in 90 minutes. He must have been flying in the MA in an obviously overmodeled Hellcat.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2006, 09:09:53 AM »
Rober Stanford Tuck also made 5 in a day in a Spit I.
Perk the Spit I !!!!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline BlauK

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5091
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2006, 09:22:49 AM »
In january 1940, Lt Sarvanto shot down SIX DB-3 bombers with his Fokker D.XXI fighter in FIVE minutes ;)

Read more about it!!!


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline 38ruk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2121
      • @pump_upp - best crypto pumps on telegram !
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2006, 10:52:47 AM »
Quote
Ive read stories in flight journal that an f-86 test pilot broke the barrier before yeager


Was that your article WideWing? I'm trying to remember how long ago i read it , Maybe 3 years ago? could be 2 yrs . thx 38

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2006, 10:54:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
the maiden flight of the first Super Sabre (YF-100, there was no XF-100).

I am in the process of writing an in-depth piece on Welch, having learned much more about his career and personal life since my previous articles were published almost 6 years ago. I have a considerable collection of photos, including some taken when Welch was flying with the 80th FS of the 8th FG. Welch was credited with 16 kills in WW2, including four at Pearl Harbor. That excludes several kills that, according to squadron mates, Welch never bothered to submit paperwork for.

 


Looking forward to the completed work Widewing :)

One question regarding his 80th Headhunter days.  Stanaway's book on the 8th FG implies that Welch didn't exactly win hearts with the 80th FS in terms of the other pilots as he saw himself as a bit of a primma donna and celebrity.  It mentions at one point he was confined to his hut for breaking rules and had his food brought to him.   He apparently treated enlisted men even worse then the other officers.

Has that been your take on him?
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline ChopSaw

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2006, 12:44:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
So, what do these Chuck Yeager's valid opinions say about AH2's American rides being under modelled or LW rides being broken? :rolleyes:


Nothing and you're correct.  The thread has taken a different direction than its initial intent.  However, the initial thread was addressed and now we've moved on to another interesting thought.

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2006, 01:26:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
In january 1940, Lt Sarvanto shot down SIX DB-3 bombers with his Fokker D.XXI fighter in FIVE minutes ;)

Read more about it!!!


Every source I've seen except the one you posted says the time was 4 mins??

Not that it matters, 4 or 5 minutes...pretty fast anyway! :)
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline toon

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2006, 01:35:09 PM »
excellent pilots on all sides of the war, but by the time yeager made it overseas most of germanys leading aces were dead because of a serve till you die policy.bad strategy, instesd of rotating aces into training squads. they fought till they died. but a great pilot nonetheless as he was not a vet. either.still and most important....chuck yeager is no CHUCK NORRIS.because all CHUCK NORRIS would have had to do is crouch low on his wing and when enemy plane appears in sight jump into a flying spin and give the enemy aircraft a roundhouse kick to the prop...rendering it unflyable..S~ to all of the aces.

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2006, 01:38:47 PM »
Larry Blumer, 367th FG, ("Scrapiron IV") got 5 x 190's in 15 mins in a P-38J on 25th Aug 1945.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory