Loose Cannons - and the future of Aces High

[Zazen13]

Actually Ren ,there were very active newsgroups for AW as far back as I can remember, the discussions were just as active and all encompassing as they are here today. Perhaps even moreso as the people that played back then tended to be enthusiasts of the genre rather than just gamers...

Zazen

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
And as usual, you're wrong.  Perhaps part of the community's problem is people like you making outrageous, off-topic statements for the sole purpose of provoking a vociferous response.  Or maybe it's the simplistic willingness to assign blame to others without merit (the "porked" flight model, the "furballers," the "griefers," the Blue Knights, ad nauseum).



-- Todd/Leviathn

Thanks for proving my point so well! Everyone else has always been wrong and the bk's no matter how vile their statements, have never been wrong. All statements I made can be easily back tracked thru the threads. And what I said has nothing to do with furballing, porked flight models or greifers, but the trash comments made by the bk's on the boards. Ya can't argue with histtory nor do I want to. I made my point and you've backed it up. Thanks for your help.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually Ren ,there were very active newsgroups for AW as far back as I can remember, the discussions were just as active and all encompassing as they are here today. Perhaps even moreso as the people that played back then tended to be enthusiasts of the genre rather than just gamers...

Zazen

I guess you flew on it after shifted away from DOS AW(sorry I don't remember Zazen as a call sign from back then). Unless we spoke to each other or went to webs sites there wasn't much in the way of a BBS. Don't get me wrong. We logged on through a BBS but we are talking about a different subject.You learned what was accceptable in the arena. There were the spit dweebs and spin dweeb 38's and guys parked on the ends of runway's (at a 45 deg angle) in vaders who popped anyone getting up. The "hate" was more in good fun and most people actually respected each other as people first and dweebs secondly.  Here's a trivia question....who was the guy with the website that when you logged on you saw an overhead view of a pony flying tracers. Everyone went there for the skins color pallets.

Point is these boards have had nasty trash on them as long as I've been reading em and that doesn't do much to foster a great community. As long as that happens nothing will change in the arenas.

It used to be if some group got up and took a field and opposing force would get up and fight em. Other's would do fighter sweeps and end up in a furball. The difference? Those guys didn't get online and come to the boards to whine about this or that being unfair. That's why I had contested Dok's ideas on vulching. In the old days no one whined about vulchers. They learned not to come up from a capped field or took their chance trying to come up.

The boards give people a chance to add to the game. Unfortunatley, many spend constructive time whining about how their game is being ruined when they could be exploring ways to enjoy themselves with whats been given to them. It's a great game but no one has ever gotten any better by whining about it. They get better by getting up an flying.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
Thanks for proving my point so well! Everyone else has always been wrong and the bk's no matter how vile their statements, have never been wrong. All statements I made can be easily back tracked thru the threads. And what I said has nothing to do with furballing, porked flight models or greifers, but the trash comments made by the bk's on the boards. Ya can't argue with histtory nor do I want to. I made my point and you've backed it up. Thanks for your help.

I have never stated that the Blue Knights are always right, so you can stop putting words into my mouth.  You, however, have unequivocally stated that the Blue Knights -- and the Blue Knights alone -- hold responsibility for the current state of "trash talk" in the game.  That's just ignorant, and it ignores almost twenty years of flight sim history.  In addition, my second point appears lost on you.  I didn't say that you complained about flight models or griefers or called cheat to everybody who shot you down; I simply clumped you in with those who complain about such things.

Strangely, this thread was hijack-free and absent the sort of antagonism you boldly decry until you went ahead and stirred the pot.  




-- Todd/Leviathn

[hubsonfire]

I've never been anything but honest. If that's what's wrong with the community, God help us all.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by DamnedRen
Point is these boards have had nasty trash on them as long as I've been reading em and that doesn't do much to foster a great community. As long as that happens nothing will change in the arenas.

It used to be if some group got up and took a field and opposing force would get up and fight em. Other's would do fighter sweeps and end up in a furball. The difference? Those guys didn't get online and come to the boards to whine about this or that being unfair. That's why I had contested Dok's ideas on vulching. In the old days no one whined about vulchers. They learned not to come up from a capped field or took their chance trying to come up.

I agree with that. The difference, as I said, is today we have mostly gamers with only a few genuine enthusiasts left from the old days. In the old days, just about everyone was a ww2/air combat enthusiast. Gamers do not generally play for the pure love of the genre, they often have other motives for playing. These other motives often unfortunately include griefing, that is to say they delight in  making other's play-time as miserable and un-fun as possible even if the tasks required to do so are not fun to them. Pure genre enthusiasts on the other hand, who play just for the sheer joy and love of ww2 air combat would not likely delight in other's misery but instead seek to have as much fun as possible and in doing so incidentally increase the fun for everyone they interact with...

So, in the past there just wasn't alot to complain about, most people learned quickly to mollify their behavior to be within the accepted standards of the community, they did this for the greater common good and mutually assured fun-factor. There is little or no such sentiment today, most have no quams about acting in a way that very negatively effects the quality of gaming experience for everyone in-game, even their own teammates, they do this even in spite or maybe even because of intense negative feedback in repsone to their actions...


I think this is the core of the animosity we experience today...

Zazen

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I have never stated that the Blue Knights are always right, so you can stop putting words into my mouth.  You, however, have unequivocally stated that the Blue Knights -- and the Blue Knights alone -- hold responsibility for the current state of "trash talk" in the game.  That's just ignorant, and it ignores almost twenty years of flight sim history.  In addition, my second point appears lost on you.  I didn't say that you complained about flight models or griefers or called cheat to everybody who shot you down; I simply clumped you in with those who complain about such things.

Strangely, this thread was hijack-free and absent the sort of antagonism you boldly decry until you went ahead and stirred the pot.  




-- Todd/Leviathn

Stating facts isn't pot stirring.  An old addage, "if there's one bad apple in the bushel you don't have to look to deep to find more". I've seen your bushel and it's pretty rotten. I've made my point and have nothing more to say on the subject of your group. But I know it's very difficult for you to stop without getting in the last word so go for it as I won't respond. Take care now.

Ren

[kj714]

Dang, this particular argument has been going on for years now, under one guise or another. Always fun though.

It must let Hitech and crew know they are on the right track as everyone gets so riled up, lots of buy-in from all camps.

The day the BBS dies, the game is dead too.

So many pages, I didn't read them all.  Whats the diff betwenn LCA and RJO?
Seems alphabetical? Or is RJO too far back in history for the collective memory?

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by kj714


So many pages, I didn't read them all.  Whats the diff betwenn LCA and RJO?
Seems alphabetical? Or is RJO too far back in history for the collective memory?

LCA is all the time, RJO was one Sunday a month...

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually we targetted this group because they asserted that they were the pioneers of this anti-social/anti-fun behavior which, although a complete load of BS, made them the epitome of this behavior and examples to be targetted for 'special attention' for all those opposed to griefing...

1) Killjoy, who started this thread (the "assertion"), isn't part of the LCA. In fact, I never saw him join more than one or two LCA missions until you guys cranked up this purge. He was a bystander who noticed a difference and posted about it ... which got your knickers all wadded up.

2) Had you chosen to read what people in the LCA had posted half of the BS you guys are using as a foundation for this "special attention" would be dismissed. But rather you chose to ignore anything said which didn't support your agenda. Hmmm ... ignoring facts and basing actions on some preconceived notions about a group of people ... there's a word for that ...

3) You now admit that you targeted a group ... for the greater good, right? Rather than trying to fix a larger problem you chose to eliminate one group which in YOUR VIEW "made them the epitome of this behavior." Geee ... I bet if we all crack open our history books we can find a few not-so-nice people who preached this same kind of technique.

[Guppy35]

Dok,

What do you see as the alternatives.  The message loud and clear is a crowd is coming to a field near you.

OK you win, we're going to resist it with a crowd.  Isn't that what it's all about in the end?


I think it's fair to say that lots of the sore spots have been hit in the old Furballer vs Toolshedder debate.  Folks external to either side have probably fueled that fire.

But folks have also responded reasonably well to it.  Rook numbers, for example went through the roof and the screaming on Rook country channel became all about 'win the reset'.  We(the 475th) and other squads like the BKs have always tried to fly for the lower numbers country cause it's no fun being part of the horde.  And frankly, the idea of carrying a bomb or capturing a base doesn't interest me or the guys I fly with.

Right now to find a fight you look for the largest red dar bar and go after it.  Most of the time it's been LCA or mission oriented stuff.  Can't say it makes sense to say oh well it's a mission and they're having fun so we'll go somewhere else.  So the 38s go up and go hunting.  I think I can speak for the guys I fly with, that we'll not carry bombs or look to pork ord or anything else.  It doesn't interest us.  But we can put up a fairly decent fighter response if we need to.  Of course we've been accused of gang banging and porking ord etc anyway.  

In the end, who cares.  It's going to be the ebb and flow of the game that takes us wherever it will.  I'm still having fun and that's all that matters.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I agree with that. The difference, as I said, is today we have mostly gamers with a few enthusiasts still left from the old days. In the old days, just about everyone was a ww2/air combat enthusiast. Gamers do not generally play for the pure love of the genre, they often have other motives for playing. These other motives often unfortunately include griefing, that is to say they delight in  making other's play-time as miserable and un-fun as possible even if the tasks required to do so are not fun to them. Pure genre enthusiasts on the other hand, who play just for the sheer joy and love of ww2 air combat would not likely delight in other's misery but instead seek to have as much fun as possible and in doing so increase the fun for everyone they interact with...

A guy sitting on the end of a field in a vader with so much ammo you had to fire off 1/2 of it so you could dogfight was gaming the game. But he was falling off his chair with laughter and didn't care if he got home or not. He'd normally fight his way home and land the kills...or not. Guys trying to take off would finally up another field and come and fight him. If he did it long enough they'd wait on him and shoot him down if they could....or not. Was it right? I guess it depends on your point off view. Did they whine about it? Not a chance. They got up and popped him if they could. If not, they upped another field and had fun.

In the years I've been training I've seen approx 5 groups of people show up.

1) Those that have come from another flght game and generally want to get up and fight and will adjust to the differences. They get up and fly. No whining.
2) Those that have flown some boxed sim and liked it and really want to learn more. They even have their own joystick and with a little traning they end up and contributing member off the community. Hey, they're not fighting a computer anymore. It's another guy/gal out there. Yes, they get waxed and get frustrated but they got hooked and really enjoy the game for what it has to offer. They don't whine much either.
3) Those that have never been near a flight sim but like the idea of it. They begin with a mouse and find out that just isn't going to work. They buy a cheapy stick that allows them to turn alittle better may be marginal at best and limits their ability to learn somewhat. They may continue when they find out what a great game they've found but without proper help and setup they can't seem to find their little part in the game. Some feel their never gonna get dogfighting and either drift to something easier like bombing or quietly leave the game entirely. What they fail to understand is just about everyone started that way and learned how to dogfight. It's that you can't magically snap your fingers and become an expert dogfighter overnight. But anyone can with time. Just about every experienced player will jump in a buff from time to time for some purpose like taking a field. The next time up they're going to JABO some hanger. Then back into a fighter for some fine 1v1. Ole numma 3 has limited options and if they begin readiin the boards they start believing the trash thats flying around and think "hey, what about me...(let the whines begin). There really is hope for these guys. All they gotta do is ask for help.
4) The Laura Croft (woohoo) Tomb Raider generation who have been brought up understanding "it's ok to die" I can just up and up and up and up and up and up. One day I'll get mad an whine on the boards and whine and whine and whine and whine", ad infinitum. Most of these are kids and some will grow out of it. Don't get me wrong we have lotsa younguns playing and they're great kids. They will become great additions to the game but their young minds can easily be persuaded into a life of trash talking and whining on the boards by the last group.
5) These guys have flown a few years. Wow, some even 3-5 years. They know it all, they talk trash on the boards daily, they're never wrong. They gotta have everything their way or no one will ever hear the end of it. They gotta have the last word. They challenge everyone about everything, no matter how trivial.
They spend alot off time putting up their films, not to show you how it's done, but to show how great they really are. They're absolute best at everything and don't you ever forget it. They whine, pm you for killing them and how unfair the fight was, whatever. These are the folks  that do nothing to help the game. New folks who start reading the boards fall into the trap thinking so this is how this game is played. What they don't realize is the group that makes the most noise is generally the minority and for the most part 90% of the flying community ignore them completely. That 90% goes into the arena, checks out the action and gets up, and enjoy themselves (no whining at all). But group numma 5 plays a large role in hurting the community and the game.

Ren

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Ren said he was done, and there he is doing it again.

You love us!  You really love us!  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[CHECKERS]

Originally posted by DamnedRen


Opps, almost forgot. Bombing is more like checkers. Doh! I tink I'll jump there. KING ME!!!
I mean we still have enough Kings....err generals to go around. Don't we?

See ya up there!

 Hey Leave me outa your flapjaw crap REN,
I don't ever fly stinkin' bommers.............

 CHECKERS