Author Topic: P38 has been Porked (Read 3045 times)

Guppy35 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2006, 12:47:22 AM »

Still my favorite 38 turning story, from a combat report done by a 370th FG pilot in July 44. He's flying a P38J-10. Note he fought the entire fight with his 500 pound bombs still on and he out turned that 109 on the deck.

He didn't use full flaps obviously, but he clearly mentions using his flaps. I think it speaks to what Murdr is talking about with the John Tilly comments.

Not meant as a comment on the AH 38s. The G still seems fine to me but that's the only 38 I fly, and I still won't get out of it!

Lt. Royal Madden, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

bozon · « **Reply #46 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:26:53 AM »

Quote

Lockheed's Hanger Flying Issue: 6, test pilot Ray Meskimen

For greatest maneuverability we have found that the maneuvering flaps should be extended only long enough to complete the particular maneuver and then be retracted immediately. For example, in an effort to stay on an enemy's tail, you might feel in a tight turn the buffeting which is characteristic of an accelerated stall. You can "reef" her in and tighten your turn by lowering the maneuvering flaps until you have completed the maneuver, then retract them. By doing so immediately, little air speed is lost , and the plane is set again for maximum operations.

This quote has some good info about flap usage in combat.
Note how it is emphesized that flaps kill the speed and should be retracted immdiately.

As for adding lift for a short period the stall tests by people here seem to show that it does add lift and reduce stall speeds.

I can't tell if it's spot on, but it seems to work more like described above than before.

Bozon

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #47 on:** April 03, 2006, 05:06:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SAS_KID
how do you know it hasn't??

Maybe because it's the only plane I fly...

ack-ack

Charge · « **Reply #48 on:** April 03, 2006, 06:18:46 AM »

*Chuckle

A P38 whine?

Yankywhiners?

No offence, you guys seem to be hurt.

How bad hit did P38 K/D ratio get because of this unwanted feature in flight behaviour?

-C+

Lazerr · « **Reply #49 on:** April 03, 2006, 07:52:15 AM »

Guess I wouldn't mind so much, if the arena wasn't crawling with la7 pukes and spittards.

I guess goal here is to create uber rides without perk cost, to keep new guys around, while at the same time porking the others.

Fencer51 · « **Reply #50 on:** April 03, 2006, 11:20:04 AM »

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Originally posted by Kweassa
As for the P-51s, I'm hearing mixed opinions about it too - for instance, Magoo points out that he feels the P-51s are also heavily hit by the FM change,.

Yeah as I fly the P-51 about 95% of the time, I have noticed that it is now very unstable at low speed with 25% flaps and without 25% flaps. Any sudden nose up will cause a snap spin and a dirt nap.

Kweassa · « **Reply #51 on:** April 03, 2006, 12:34:16 PM »

Quote

I guess goal here is to create uber rides without perk cost, to keep new guys around, while at the same time porking the others.

Or perhaps the goal here is to stop some planes weighing in at an average of over 15,000lbs from out-'hovering' planes that weigh less than half its weight, by exploiting the inexplicable stability shown with high degree of flap usage.

Pyro · « **Reply #52 on:** April 03, 2006, 12:49:33 PM »

A couple of issues here. 1- There is a bug in the last flap position that is making the drag go crazy high. That part is obvious when you take it from the 4th to the 5th notch and it acts like it just popped a drag chute.

2- You can't derive much from a table of IAS stall speeds from the pilot manual without also posting the airspeed calibration table. Otherwise it's either inconclusive or misleading. You also have to take the same thing into account when dealing with pilot anecdotes.

Here's the chart for the 38.

According to the chart, in a clean condition the IAS on the 38 is only accurate at 200 mph. Above that it displays too high and below that it displays too low. If the real plane was indicating 377, that would be a calibrated airspeed of 360. If the real plane was indicating 83, it was really doing 100.

In landing configuration, IAS is accurate at 140 mph and keeps getting lower as airspeed falls. At 89 mph IAS, its really doing 100 mph. It's not like that in the game so you can't compare the two without switching to CAS.

Even after the bug in the last flaps position is fixed, it's still going to be undesirable to go to full flaps in a dogfight for all but a few unusual conditions.

Pyro · « **Reply #53 on:** April 03, 2006, 12:51:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Morpheus

This sounds nothing like the 38 in AH2.

Uncontroled most often unrecoverable flat spins from as high or higher than 15k down to the deck and into the dirt.

I have been flying the 38 for as long as I've been flying AH. In AH 1 there was almost no tendency for the plane to get into a flat spin. (Do a search) When AH2 came out, my first post about AH2's "new/better FM" tweaks was that the 38 now was able to enter a stall/flatspin that was hardly ever recoverable. I remember going afk ending up at 20k with a con on my long 6. I went to reverse slowly to meet nose to nose and before I could reverse fully I was in a stall and falling straight down... from 20k or so right into the water. It was an agressive reverse, but no more agressive than the 1000's of other times I've reversed with someone on my 6. My speed entering the reversal was aprox 250mph after I had been level for a short while.

Here's the next paragraph that follows the one you cited:

storch · « **Reply #54 on:** April 03, 2006, 01:39:55 PM »

I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.

Morpheus · « **Reply #55 on:** April 03, 2006, 01:42:13 PM »

Pyro, I have films of me literally falling out of the sky from 10k+ right on down into the deck. No amount of engine, rudder, aliron or elevator input makes a difference for the vast majority of these flat spins. Throtling 1 engine up or down, or both to slow the spin makes no difference either. It is nearly impossible to get the nose pointed down to regain air speed in most of these situations. This has ONLY happened when flying the 38 and a few of the other twin engine fighters.

Morpheus · « **Reply #56 on:** April 03, 2006, 01:43:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by storch
I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.

Is that what you said when the 09's would do a back flip in a milisecond? I dont think so.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 03, 2006, 02:01:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by storch
I'm enjoying myself reading the complaints from players when their ten ton fighter no longer responds like a fiesler storch at 55 mph. It's not porked now, its actually fixed. thanks HTC, it's about time.

LOL so much for those of us Allied Iron drivers who supported getting the 109 to the level the 109 drivers seemed to believe was accurate

Guppy35 · « **Reply #58 on:** April 03, 2006, 02:06:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
A couple of issues here. 1- There is a bug in the last flap position that is making the drag go crazy high. That part is obvious when you take it from the 4th to the 5th notch and it acts like it just popped a drag chute.

Even after the bug in the last flaps position is fixed, it's still going to be undesirable to go to full flaps in a dogfight for all but a few unusual conditions.

Glad to know that last position is a bug. I was checking it offline again in my old 38G and it just didn't want to fly with full flaps. Pushing it back to 4th notch and it felt better and would at least climb a bit.

What I do find is I'm much more aware of flap use in the 38G. I'm less apt to get slow and turn fight and am limiting myself to 'combat flaps' for the most part.

Not sure if that's a good thing or not

Kweassa · « **Reply #59 on:** April 03, 2006, 04:57:23 PM »

Indeed.

Then it is confirmed that the observations on the full flaps by most people were correct - they do add a huge amount of drag. However, as it has been noted as a bug, then I'm sure it should be fixed pretty soon. I guess we'll just have to see what the fixed model flies like, to continue with this discussion.