Author Topic: Islam is going Nuclear  (Read 4102 times)

Offline Mr Big

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Islam is going Nuclear
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2006, 11:26:27 PM »
Nash, what war in history would you have "manned up" and fought in?

(of course, you now have 20/20 hindsight)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2006, 11:32:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Okay, so you concede, contrary to your "point of order" post, that your entire military is run by a civilian.
[/b]

That's it? We have a civilian SecDef? Yah, our military doesn't run the country, you're right. OTOH, our SecDef doesn't "man-up and fight" the wars he oversees. Never has.

Or were you solely referring to the SecDef as a 101st Fighting Keyboardist?

Quote
And all this in the name of a post by you defending Maverick's assertion that you need to wear a uniform to understand the consequences of launching nukes. I think you picked the wrong fight here man.
[/b]

I didn't pick any fight.

I am not defending Maverick's post.

I'm challenging your earlier characterization of posters here that you dislike, or that you disagree with as "101st Fighting Keyboardists".

A lot of guys here "manned-up" and fought. Or "manned-up" and served. Whether I agree with all of them or not is immaterial to me. IMO, they earned the right to speak of these things without being maligned.

Quote
I do maintain that if you believe strongly in a war, you should  it, if possible. I sure as hell would - I kid you not.


I did. I would again.
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Offline Nash

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Islam is going Nuclear
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2006, 11:42:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mr Big
Nash, what war in history would you have "manned up" and fought in?

(of course, you now have 20/20 hindsight)


WWII... and....

.....uhm, yeah, that's it so far.

Certainly not WWI.

Korea? Not so much. I don't think the "domino effect" argument had real legs. That's easy to say with hindsight, but I probably would have questioned it back then. And now, the countrty is divided in half, and that war has to this day, never ended.

Vietnam? Fahgedaboudit. Come on.

Don't get me wrong though, the Cold War was indeed a war, and well fought, and took many a man's determination and sacrifice. But I was in highschool when Gorby put the kybosh on it.

Prior to WWI?

I would have been real busy in the 1700's and 1800's.

And.... well that's the end of show-and-tell.

What's it to you anyways, Nuke?

Offline Mr Big

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« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2006, 11:48:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
WWII... and....

.....uhm, yeah, that's it so far.

Certainly not WWI.

Korea? Not so much. I don't think the "domino effect" argument had real legs. That's easy to say with hindsight, but I probably would have questioned it back then. And now, the countrty is divided in half, and that war has to this day, never ended.

Vietnam? Fahgedaboudit. Come on.

Don't get me wrong though, the Cold War was indeed a war, and well fought, and took many a man's determination and sacrifice. But I was in highschool when Gorby put the kybosh on it.

Prior to WWI?

I would have been real busy in the 1700's and 1800's.

And.... well that's the end of show-and-tell.

What's it to you anyways, Nuke?


like I said, 20/20 hindsight.

I'm pretty intelligent. Maybe you should consider chess rather than checkers when you reply to my posts.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 11:51:07 PM by Mr Big »

Offline Debonair

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Islam is going Nuclear
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2006, 11:49:03 PM »
I wish I'd have been in on the whiskey rebellion.
pwnage & drinks, sound nice

Offline Nash

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« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2006, 11:53:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


That's it? We have a civilian SecDef? Yah, our military doesn't run the country, you're right. OTOH, our SecDef doesn't "man-up and fight" the wars he oversees. Never has.[/b]


Settle down.

Maverick derides me for having an opinion wrt the use of Nukes when I am not military.

I called bs.

You went off, all "offended," saying: "Our foreign policy doesn't involve the use of our civilians."

I said that the guy who actually gives the military its orders is a civilian.

Okay?

Now you wanna get all nutso?

All I said, bro, was that there is no such thing as this outdated term: "tactical nuke."

Doesn't exist. Doesn't get fired off in some vacuum. Because the minute that it does, it's way more political than it ever was tactical.

You got something to say about that? Or would you rather stay all uniform, serving, self-righteous?

Offline Mr Big

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« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2006, 11:56:30 PM »
Nash says he would have "manned up" and fought in WWII.

Why Nash? what would you have been fighting for?

Offline Mr Big

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« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2006, 11:58:30 PM »
Chess/checkers

Offline Toad

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« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2006, 06:38:27 AM »
You'll note my first post came late to this thread. It addresses your first post in this thread and deals specifically with your "101st Fighting Keyboardist" remark.

That is what caused me to post. You malign a lot of people who did serve but have the audacity to disagree with you. Forgive me for expecting more.

As for tactical, there is a specific definition for a "tactical nuke".

Can a "tactical nuke" be used as part of a "strategic" policy?

Yeah, so can a tank, a rifle or an ICBM.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2006, 08:30:09 AM »
nash,

Quick and dirty response as I don't have time to stay at the keyboard today, I don't even have time to do a spell check, sorry.

As to your assertion that a nuke makes a strategic vs tactical operation, bovine feces. It is an explosive device of very limited yield. It does not make the enemy any deader than say napalm or shrapnel. That is has other possibly lasting consequences is obvious but hardly the dividing point between strategic, tactical or political considerations. The scope of the conflict can also be defined by the size of the forces and or the goals of the country deploying forces.

The tactical nuke situation already put up on the thread and discarded by you, is the use of a smaller device to stop an already strategic move by a hostile force. This is to influence the cessation of the strategic operation by the country using sizable military assets to achieve a global influential goal. Hence it is already a strategic situation and certainly political a the start of the hostilities, nuke or not.
 
A strategic nuke would be used against a larger theater target such as the means to continue to wage war, ie military production, mobility assets and the general population of the enemy country, a military and political asset to the beligerant country.

Easy way to think of tactical vs strategic is the immediate goals or targets. Strategic  is small influence on a specific area or battlefield. Strategic means the influence of a much larger area or possibly the ability to cause a cessation of an entire country's military effort. This is not to say a tactical operation can't have a strategic influence, it just wasn't intended to do so.

War and the use of the military is by definition a political operation. it is only deployed by a country in an attempt to influence the POLITICAL goals of the country deploying it, hence a military operation is already politically motivated.

Political considerations always drive the use of the military and in this country the civilian politicians are the point of direction for the military, sometimes with less than desirable results from their lack of military abilities. LBJ comes to mind.

The presence of a uniform does not impart military expertise. The lack of any experiance certainly does not lend credence to having any military expertise at all. The lack of ever having served, lack of ability to serve and or lack of inclination to serve the country, community hardly gives anyone the right to volunteer others to do that which they won't do themselves.

In other words, before you invite others to do something, you should first have placed yourself in position to have done that same act. That is a basic tenet of leadership and integrity. Don't tell others to do what you yourself will not do. It's also insulting to deride others who have served because they acted on their beliefs if you are not willing to do the same.

I would say the "101 fighting keyboardist" term fits one who has not or would not serve quite nicely.

BTW Viet Nam and Korea were not divided by the cold war per se. They were divided at the end of WW2.
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Offline Stringer

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Islam is going Nuclear
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2006, 01:49:44 PM »
The way it appears to me is that we've actually facilitated or made it easier for Iran to achieve their nuclear ambitions becuase of our invasion of Iraq.

Iran senses, probably correctly, that the International Community tacitly stood by while we invaded Iraq, but won't be so accomodating if we made noise to invade Iran.

Iran's problem would be if they over-played that hand, but due to us spending the bullet, so to speak in Iraq, it makes it harder for us to do the same with Iran, even though it would be more appropiate to do so with Iran.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2006, 04:33:17 PM »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline AlGorithm

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Islam is going Nuclear
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2006, 04:48:31 PM »
So Iran shouldn't have nukes because...
They're Muslim?
or
They're Fundamentalists?
or
Their leaders are loony?
or
They don't recognize Israel?
or
They use bombs on their enemies?

Other than being Muslim, what disqualifies a country from being trusted with nukes?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2006, 05:52:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stringer

Iran senses, probably correctly, that the International Community tacitly stood by while we invaded Iraq, but won't be so accomodating if we made noise to invade Iran.



The International Community would piss and moan but they wouldn't DO anything if we did.

That's been proven repeatedly over and over again.

OTOH, I think Iran correctly perceives that our military is worn down and stretched (once again I smile when I think of all the continual assurances we've had since the '60's that we could fight two major wars at one time.) and I think they believe (rightly so) that Bush wouldn't be able to get Congress to sign off on an invasion of Iran.

So, Iran has no reason to fear any action by the US and they never, ever had any reason to fear any UN action.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2006, 05:53:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AlGorithm
Other than being Muslim, what disqualifies a country from being trusted with nukes?


Having a President that continually suggests wiping another country off the face of the earth?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!