F4u-u1/1d/1c/u4

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Widewing
Hiya Jaxxo.. Stop by the TA one evening and I'll show you why the F4U is so damned dangerous now. I can say this without reservation, it's nearly impossible to beat the Hogs on a Co-E reverse. A really good pilot may match it with a Spitfire, but probably not.

These days, the hands-down best dogfighter in the game is the F4U-4. It can do anything the Spit16 can do, and go like hell to boot.

Remember, don't rate an airplane by the skills of the pilots flying it. Fighting a good pilot 1v1 is where you can get a real handle on what an aircraft is capable of. You really have to get the pilots out of the equation to isolate the plane's performance. Unfortunately, that's not easy to do. Especially in the MA.

My regards,

Widewing

Co-E reversal the spit wins everytime.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Co-E reversal the spit wins everytime.

Disagree... Nothing dumps E like an F4U and there's several methods to bleeding off speed that result in a rediculous turn radius.

My regards,

Widewing

[Glasses]

Originally posted by Widewing
Disagree... Nothing dumps E like an F4U and there's several methods to bleeding off speed that result in a rediculous turn radius.

My regards,

Widewing

Including wunderflaps.

[Saxman]

I'm partial to the landing gear magic airbrakes, m'self.

One problem with arguing this, as I think has been pointed out, is that few if any people here have actual flight time with any of these birds (IIRC, isn't there some sort of special license/flight training required to qualify to fly a vintage warbird? Think I remember reading about some guy who built a 3/4 scale P-51 with a modern engine because he would have had to qualify for the REAL thing). I've read accounts from pilots who describe the Corsair doing things a LOT like what I've seen in here. I've also read spec descriptions that say she COULDN'T. So who do you go by? What the manual says or what the guys who had to push the birds PAST the specified limits to survive?

Anyway, I think there's gamier stuff out there that should be addressed WAY before whether or not the F4U could handle like she does here.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Saxman
I'm partial to the landing gear magic airbrakes, m'self.

I know that you are aware of this, but most people don't know that the F4U had a combat flap setting and dive brakes. Indeed, the landing gear were engineered to be used as dive brakes. When the pilot used the dive brake lever, the main landing would drop (the tail wheel did not lower).

Max deployment speed was 300 mph, max retraction speed was 400 mph. So, there's nothing magic about them. Also, the maneuver flaps could be lowered at 250 mph and would blow back up at around 300 mph.

Both of these features, if you will, were routinely used by F4U pilots in combat, so there's nothing gamey about their use.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bingo73]

Widewing PM sent!

[Saxman]

Well, I meant magic more in the way they can so quickly alter the F4U's Energy state and pull her through a high-speed turn more quickly than she otherwise would. I think that's part of where a lot of the misconception about the Corsair's turning ability is coming in because those gear can REALLY whip her through a mid or high-speed turn. During a brief session I had with PF in the TA working on that rolling scissors he suggested kicking out gear only a for a few moments and pulling them back up. Playing around with it I've found that the excess drag DOES provide an initial advantage, but left extended seems to offer little additional benefit.

And I'll need to check it again, but it seems that the F4U's combat flap setting auto-retracts AT 250 in AH. That a detail that may need fixing?

BTW Glasses, dunno if this will ease your concerns about the Corsair's ease of handling, but I was in a big furball last night with a Hurri C tucked in at close range behind me at mid-speed (maybe about 250-300 ias). As I was trying to start that rolling scissors I was more concerned with picking up the Hurri than what I was doing and went right into an unrecoverable spin. I wasn't even horsing around too hard on the stick, she just snapped into it without warning (I think I made the mistake of trying to kick the rudder and roll to start a rolling scissors with too much back-stick pressure. The F4U REALLY doesn't seem to like too much rudder and pitch at the same time).

Just to poll the Corsair drivers since this seems to be a relevant issue, is there anyone here who DOESN'T, at least once in a while, spin an F4U? I'm willing to bet that even the top sticks push a little too hard and let the Hog get out from under them every now and then.

As for torque, the F4U has a natural tendency to pull to the left, so that might slow her down in a right turn, but it would help a great deal in a turn to the left (another thing PF showed me, with a notch of flaps and WEP, at certain airspeeds the Corsair REALLY pulls hard to port). So in that case, engine torque would be a benefit, not a detriment so long as the plane remains under control.

[Glasses]

There's a flaw with that assesment you're comparing the relative turning circle against other allied aircraft instead of comparing it to how it performed  aginst its historial counterparts, even a Ki-84 in AH has trouble with an F4U, even light planes like an 109G2 have problems with the F4U that's the whole point , since the new revision of the flight code the F4U has been given superb stability and improved turning circle per G it can hang on its prop, not with E retention as Widewing described it but the lack of any perceived loss of control below stall speed,which you can keep pulling the stick and go vertical as soon as you hit 90mph and have two notches of flaps with full power and recover,with full fuel and full armament.

It's this the F4U has become the new Super Maneuverable aircraft,after the P-38? My whole argument is that this plane even though it was fast making tight stall fighting maneuvers was not of its historical prowess,yet in AH consistantly it can be put into  maneuvers against some of its historical counterparts,that seem just out of the whole context of what the aircraft could do.

People other than myself have posted in this thread indicating the same,that they have noticed the awesome maneuverability and super powerloading the F4U has gained,compared to smaller lighter better power loaded aircraft, I bet even that Hurricane,aside from the pilot's skill even had trouble shaking your F4U at the speeds the Hurricane performs best(below 250mph) ,that itself didn't mean anything it just meant that the Hurricane most likely got to a speed that even the F4U entering Biplane mode(flaps) couldn't react quickly to these changes and well ya ate some dirt.  

I still argue when you have A-20s and F4Us going spiral climbing with zekes Ki-84s and 109s  co E,nearing stall without any sort of departure from controlled flight there's definetly something wrong there.

[DoKGonZo]

I'm sure some of you have seen this:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F4U.html

About 13 min in they get into the stall behavior - and then acrobatics after that. What's interesting watching this is (a) that the low speed stall they show doesn't seem very present in AH and (b) that the F4U really is pretty manoueverable as long as you don't dip down into those low speeds. They also specifically mention that the flaps are there to add turn rate - but also say that the F4U shouldn't try to turn with more nimble planes. And with that 90 kt stall they show, its clear why.

I think somewhere along the way the stall got messed up, everything else in AH2 looks like what I saw in the training film. The low-speed stall on the F4U should be kind of like the Fw's currently is I think.

[whels]

are you sure about the gear being used as speed brakes?

i thought it was only the gear doors used, not the gear its self.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by whels
are you sure about the gear being used as speed brakes?

i thought it was only the gear doors used, not the gear its self.

Watch the video.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Saxman
Well, I meant magic more in the way they can so quickly alter the F4U's Energy state and pull her through a high-speed turn more quickly than she otherwise would. I think that's part of where a lot of the misconception about the Corsair's turning ability is coming in because those gear can REALLY whip her through a mid or high-speed turn. During a brief session I had with PF in the TA working on that rolling scissors he suggested kicking out gear only a for a few moments and pulling them back up. Playing around with it I've found that the excess drag DOES provide an initial advantage, but left extended seems to offer little additional benefit.

And I'll need to check it again, but it seems that the F4U's combat flap setting auto-retracts AT 250 in AH. That a detail that may need fixing?

BTW Glasses, dunno if this will ease your concerns about the Corsair's ease of handling, but I was in a big furball last night with a Hurri C tucked in at close range behind me at mid-speed (maybe about 250-300 ias). As I was trying to start that rolling scissors I was more concerned with picking up the Hurri than what I was doing and went right into an unrecoverable spin. I wasn't even horsing around too hard on the stick, she just snapped into it without warning (I think I made the mistake of trying to kick the rudder and roll to start a rolling scissors with too much back-stick pressure. The F4U REALLY doesn't seem to like too much rudder and pitch at the same time).

Just to poll the Corsair drivers since this seems to be a relevant issue, is there anyone here who DOESN'T, at least once in a while, spin an F4U? I'm willing to bet that even the top sticks push a little too hard and let the Hog get out from under them every now and then.

As for torque, the F4U has a natural tendency to pull to the left, so that might slow her down in a right turn, but it would help a great deal in a turn to the left (another thing PF showed me, with a notch of flaps and WEP, at certain airspeeds the Corsair REALLY pulls hard to port). So in that case, engine torque would be a benefit, not a detriment so long as the plane remains under control.

My method of reversing an F4U as fast as possible is as follows:

I immediately dump the gear and begain a climbing reverse, I pull hard enough to briefly blackout. As soon as I can see (just a bit past vertical), I pull up the gear and dump flaps. Done right, the Spitfire will coming over the top after you've rolled out. Timing the reverse is important. About 50% of the time you can kill the spit before he's aware your there.

Yes, I do spin an F4U once in a while, but always catch it within 1/4 revolution. I sometimes spin it intentionally, catching it when I've gained the angle I wanted. I have a film I can post showing how I use this to shake someone on my six. The usual response is, "where the heck did you go?" I'll post the film if anyone is interested.

Glasses, I've said before that the current F4U flight model may not be historic. However, it is what we have and I won't hesitate to exploit what it is capable of if need be. F4Us have always been very good at low speeds, but did improve a bit with the latest update. Currently, the F4U-4 can dominate every other fighter, regardless if it's a low-speed or high-speed engagement.

Finally, if a Hurricane IIC should find a Corsair on its six, the chances of survival are slim. Typically, getting something off your six is a lot more difficult than staying on someone's six. Inasmuch as the F4U-1D can turn nearly as tight as the Hurricane, things will be bleak for the hurri driver.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bingo73
Widewing PM sent!

Reply sent.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by whels
are you sure about the gear being used as speed brakes?

i thought it was only the gear doors used, not the gear its self.

Main mounts, no tail wheel.

My regards,

Widewing

[Glasses]

Imagine only if the F4U had jets...wait it does now .