Author Topic: F4Us and 109s are great fun these days (Read 3055 times)

gripen · « **Reply #75 on:** May 14, 2006, 03:22:34 AM »

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Originally posted by MOSQ
Are our Spits supposed to have 3 flap settings beyond no flaps?

Those partial settings (30deg and 60deg) are calculations to study the effect of the flaps (other variables being weight, engine output, altitude etc.). There were just two flap positions in the real plane: in (0deg) and fully out (85deg).

gripen

Gunzo · « **Reply #76 on:** May 14, 2006, 06:56:59 AM »

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Originally posted by HoHun
My question is the one you failed to answer.

Nope, your question had already been answered, more than once and by more than one person. But you clearly don't understand them.

If you want a deeper insight, why not do what everyone else here does, and go to the TA and fly until you get it. That's why everyone else's questions and answers actually make sense, because they are based on a solid foundation of arena experience.

If you really want to work it out, I'd be happy to demonstrate that it works exactly as already described here. We can meet in the TA if you wish. You do have an account don't you?

Very kind regards........

uvwpvW · « **Reply #77 on:** May 14, 2006, 10:28:00 AM »

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Originally posted by Gunzo
The other day I flew some 109F v Spit engagements with Infensus in the TA. We flew a large number of separate engagements, and we swapped planes to eliminate the pilot skill factor. No matter what we did, the guy driving the Bf109F invariably won.

That's what the LW and RAF found out in Africa and over the channel too.

Pooface · « **Reply #78 on:** May 14, 2006, 11:23:48 AM »

actually gunzo and i had some fights in the TA just now, and we proved the opposite. spit5 won every fight. we swapped planes several times, spit always won, either in the vert (we had one fight that ended up going from 0k through a septuple immelman to 6k or so!) or in the flat turn, where it was the clear the f4 was going faster, and therefore turning better, but due to the handling characteristics of the spit, it could fly far slower, and tighter, squeeze right inside the f4 and get some very easy close cannon shots because of the speed. at one time, even though the f4 could climb better, the torque effect and less stable stall meant that even at the top of the rope, the 109 couldnt get onto the spit. meanwhile the spit, still doing 80 mph had enough e to stay steady and get plenty of hits on the 109

on paper, the 109 should win, but due to the way the planes fly and stall, the spit comes out on top if you really take them to the edge.

should have filmed it really, made for some amazing drawn out fights, the match-up is incredible, really is hard for either plane to gain an angle. about to go into the TA again, we'll try it again i think, this time i'll record it:aok

Murdr · « **Reply #79 on:** May 14, 2006, 12:53:54 PM »

Pooface I think you guys were missing the specific technique to push the 109f in sustained turns without losing the handle. Stang came to the TA for a demonstration, and did find that I could walk the 109 around the circle in either direction (left or right) aginst a spitV near stall speeds. And that was starting with the spitV on my side of the circle.

Im sure Gunzo can wring as much ouf of the 109f as I can, because we also did a number of mock duels in the TA together.

Charge · « **Reply #80 on:** May 14, 2006, 02:45:24 PM »

"why not just give back the spit 5 the extra +16 boost is order for spit 5 to stay on par with 109F... "

Maybe its already on par even without that +16 boost?

-C+

Gunzo · « **Reply #81 on:** May 14, 2006, 02:53:57 PM »

Hi guys,

Today's fights were a surprise to me. Pooface and I had a different result to last time. But here is the strange thing, when I did the fights before with Infensus we swapped planes to make sure it wasn't pilot skill. This time with pooface we did exactly the same, but got a different result. We also did similar aircraft fights just to make sure there wasn't any big difference in pilot skill, but they came out pretty even. Before in the flat turns the 109F was clearly superior, but today it was far more even, and we went around in circles a lot.

That also created some complications, because sometimes the circles were not lined up on center, so it wasn't clear how much was due to turn rate and how much was due to geometry. Pooface noticed this as it was happening and called it out during the fights when it occurred. Another complication was the Spitfire's smaller turn radius, which seemed to make more of a difference, a bit like the off-set turn circles, than I previously thought. Pooface said he might do some diagrams.

Then we also thought it might be because we were always getting into right hand turns, and not left hand turns as described in this thread, so we tried the other way. The 109F was better that way around and even got some early shots but in general dogfighting the Spitfire did better overall.

We agreed that it was because the Spitfire was generally easier to fly and also easier to fly at low speed, with less busy work involved with flaps, and left it at that.

The other factor we haven't considered is how well each of us adapted to the new aircraft characteristics. I know that if you fly an aircraft a lot, after a while you can squeeze more out of it, because you just seem to get in tune with it. But we were flying a fairly unfamiliar aircraft in the 109F so maybe neither of us were really getting the best out of it.

Unfortunately I have to admit I'm not so certain about the Bf109F now. It is certainly a lot better than it was, that is for sure!

HoHun · « **Reply #82 on:** May 14, 2006, 03:04:41 PM »

Hi Gunzo,

>Nope, your question had already been answered, more than once and by more than one person. But you clearly don't understand them.

Check out what I actually asked, then apologize.

Thank you.

Henning (HoHun)

Pooface · « **Reply #83 on:** May 14, 2006, 03:55:46 PM »

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Originally posted by Murdr
Pooface I think you guys were missing the specific technique to push the 109f in sustained turns without losing the handle. Stang came to the TA for a demonstration, and did find that I could walk the 109 around the circle in either direction (left or right) aginst a spitV near stall speeds. And that was starting with the spitV on my side of the circle.

Im sure Gunzo can wring as much ouf of the 109f as I can, because we also did a number of mock duels in the TA together.

as did we. we spent 2 hours after that post aswell. all in all we must have done it for 3 hours, turning both ways, doing everything. spit was gaining and winning every time

Pooface · « **Reply #84 on:** May 14, 2006, 04:16:41 PM »

gunzo and i tried it again and again, switching planes multiple times, and also flying same plane duels in a lot of other planes to make sure we were on-par skill wise.

spit always won. the 109 would sometimes get close, and maybe land a hit or two, but the spit always got around and was able to empty it's guns into the 109.

what i think is going on is that the turning circles of the two planes are not in sync. the spit's tighter circle allows it to do more revolutions at the same speed, which allows it to sneak inside the 109. it took a very long time for the spit to truely get onto the 109's 6, but only a relatively short time to start getting gun solutions, eg high angle deflection shots.

it's so close that it's very hard to call. the 109 is faster and cimbs far better, so in a normal head on merge, with multiple immelmans, the 109 comes out better off. however once both planes cant go up any more, the spit can turn tighter due to it's easier flying characteristics, and it starts to get onto the 109's tail.

infact, i was getting onto gunzo's tail in the spit even after my wep ran out and his was still pentiful. it turned out after that that he had been flying with 25% fuel and i had been going with 50%. the next sortie i took 25% too and the result was even clearer. despite this, when we both flew in the same planes it was clear that we were almost identical skillwise.

the 109 has a better sustained turn on paper, but when you are actually flying in a fight the spit wins it hands down. i reckon it's due to the easier flight dynamics and the lower stall speed, which allows the spit to ease inside the 109.

just trust me on this, we did it enough to know for a fact that it wasnt down to anything but the plane-type. i'd love to try and show you guys in the TA aswell.

that being said i was amazed at how the 109 flew and turned so well. i always knew that it was fairly nimble but had no idea that it could give a spit a run for it's money:cool:

Murdr · « **Reply #85 on:** May 14, 2006, 05:16:17 PM »

guess you'll have to take it up with widewing or i then

Widewing · « **Reply #86 on:** May 14, 2006, 07:23:51 PM »

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Originally posted by Murdr
guess you'll have to take it up with widewing or i then

Well, if Gunzo was trying to turn fight at 80 mph.... The Spitfire will win...

I never let it get slower than about 105 mph. No need to. Get it too slow and you surrender your advantage of turn rate.

Me; I'd spiral climb up and drop on it like a sack of rocks.

Pooface, I'll be in the TA on Monday evening around 8 PM eastern.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #87 on:** May 14, 2006, 09:16:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Pooface
gunzo and i tried it again and again, switching planes multiple times, and also flying same plane duels in a lot of other planes to make sure we were on-par skill wise.

Pooface, when you flew the 109F-4, did you guys turn off combat trim and trim manually?

My regards,

Widewing

LEDPIG · « **Reply #88 on:** May 15, 2006, 06:09:23 AM »

With another question about turn rates, seems like i've noticed the P-38 outturning Mustangs, 47's and some of those other Heavier metal planes, including the German types like the Fw 190, is this true or am i hallucinating?

LEDPIG · « **Reply #89 on:** May 15, 2006, 06:13:35 AM »

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Originally posted by -pjk--
Flying full flaps in combat was NEVER happened!

Full flaps were/are for landing, specially for spit having on/off airbrake.

109 about same after 15 degrees flaps out.

Flying/fightin flaps full out should not be possible in game, only for landing.

Flaps mostly are gamin the game online; "combatflaps" beeing exeption.

puujiikoo

PJK, I didn't think full flaps were used in real life either, so some of these observations might be untrue to real life. As far as i know actual fighters only dropped combat flaps.